VANDERBURGH COUNTY

REZONING BOARD

APRIL 15, 2008

The Vanderburgh County Rezoning Board met in session this 15^th day of April, 2008 at 5:40 p.m. in room 301 of the Civic Center Complex with President Jeff Korb presiding.

President Korb: Welcome. Thanks for coming. Let’s go ahead and get this rezoning petition going.

Janet Greenwell: My apologies, I was just informed that you may not have received the minutes. I have no knowledge of why that would have happened. You have them? Okay, good. In that case I would ask that you approve our minutes from our last meeting.

Commissioner Tornatta: So moved.

Commissioner Nix: Second.

President Korb: All those in favor say aye.

All Commissioners: Aye.

President Korb: Opposed same sign. They are approved.

Janet Greenwell: Thank you.

President Korb: You’re welcome.

Janet Greenwell: I’m Janet Greenwell with the Area Plan Commission. We have only one rezoning on tonight’s agenda. It’s VC-2-2008, 16820 Petersburg Road. Bill Engelbrecht’s Orchard and Farm Market is requesting to rezone a 1.64 acre part of his property at 16820 Petersburg Road from agricultural to C-4 with a use and development commitment. The site is on the west side of Petersburg Road just south of the Highway 57 intersection. Mr. Engelbrecht has indicated plans to establish an orchard on the parent parcel of this agriculturally zoned acreage. He proposes to rezone a part of the site to allow an orchard market. A preliminary site exhibit was submitted at the Area Plan Commission meeting, and I’ve scanned that plan and it’s part of tonight’s presentation. It should be coming up on your screen momentarily. The use and development commitment submitted as part of the rezoning request eliminates most commercial uses typically allowed in a C-4, allowing uses that were identified by Mr. Engelbrecht as possible future commercial activity on the site, and commercial uses related to the produce grown on the site. The C-4 classification will allow sales of incidental items like candy, bakery items, novelties, those types of things that are not within the scope of a permitted roadside agricultural stand that’s allowed in an agricultural district. Our future land use map and the comprehensive plan indicates the area along Petersburg west of 57 as an area of agricultural with scattered residential. The east side of Highway 57 is industrial. The orchard and the roadside stand for agricultural products are permitted in the existing agricultural district. This request is to rezone just a small portion, 1.64 acres, to C-4 with a commitment limiting the uses to sales and service, uses typically associated with the primary use of the property as an orchard. At APC I think they referred to it as agri-tourism uses. The Evansville MPO indicates that the orchard market should not have a significant impact on any transportation network currently or proposed, and Area Plan Commission voted to recommend approval at their meeting on April 10^th with eight affirmative, one negative, and one abstention vote. If you have any questions, I’ll be glad to try to answer them.

President Korb: Essentially, Janet, what we’re looking at here is rezoning from agricultural to C-4?

Janet Greenwell: With a use and development commitment.

President Korb: With a use and development commitment, and that’s primarily because they’re wanting to put a store on the property to sell their products?

Janet Greenwell: They want the ability for the store to sell a few additional items, in addition to the produce grown on the site.

President Korb: Gotcha. Okay. So, if we can, we will first hear from the petitioner representative, Jim Morley, Jr., from Morley and Associates who is serving as the professional for this petition.

Jim Morley, Jr.: Jim Morley, Jr., Project Engineer with Morley and Associates. I’m going to provide you also a map that shows the area that they want to rezone, and then the area that’s existing, has already been planted in trees, and the area that they plan on planting trees in the future. The request in front of you tonight is to allow, they’ve already got trees planted in the area that I’ve shown there in the red square, and they plan on increasing the size of the orchard into the two yellows. The yellow behind the rezoning area would be a u-pick facility, and the intent is then that there be a store in front of the u-pick facility in which they would be able to sell the products from this orchard. Then, the rezoning would allow them, if they wanted to sell candy or pies or something like that, they need the C-4 zoning. It is pretty typical to do this kind of thing. You can’t afford to put 80 acres of orchard in a commercial zoning area, so, you have to zone the orchard mart in the agricultural area. We received a positive, one negative and one abstention vote at Area Plan Commission.

President Korb: What was the vote again?

Jim Morley, Jr.: The vote at Area Plan Commission was eight positive, one negative, and one abstention.

President Korb: As we’re looking at this sheet you gave us, which we did not have at the Area Plan Commission meeting, you have two additional proposed locations for the orchard?

Jim Morley, Jr.: That’s the area that they would expand into in planting. That doesn’t have to be rezoned. That’s just trees.

President Korb: Okay, and do the Engelbrecht’s currently own those two plots of land?

Jim Morley, Jr.: The parcel behind the rezoning area would be part of the purchase.

President Korb: Part of this deal?

Jim Morley, Jr.: Part of this deal, and the other part would be based off of a lease.

President Korb: Okay. Questions for Mr. Morley? None? Thanks, Mr. Morley. Remonstrators? People who are not in favor of this? Come on up, and if you would just, please, state your name. One at a time.

Ryan Hart: My name is Ryan Hart. My residence is 16740 Petersburg Road, which would be to the southwest of the rezoned piece of ground.

President Korb: Can you show us where that is on the....not you–

Ryan Hart: Oh.

President Korb: –but, the pointer.

Ryan Hart: It’s the green, right there. Yeah.

President Korb: Right there?

Ryan Hart: Yeah.

President Korb: Okay.

Ryan Hart: That’s my ground. One of the major concerns we have with this whole thing is the traffic increase on Petersburg Road. If my wife or my aunts, who walk down the road, they might, five cars tops might pass them on an afternoon walk. Another concern is there are some sharp curves on the road, and people who aren’t familiar with the road, take it too fast and end up in the ditch, which might be in my neighbor’s front yard, or my front yard, for that matter, if they’re going too fast anyway. Another thing would be Highway 57 traffic, the industrial parks that are already south of us on Highway 57 have widened this highway and put turn lanes in for industrial traffic. Would there be that access at Petersburg Road, or at Baseline Road, which would just be to the south of the Petersburg exit off of 57? Another thing, in the Area Plan Commission last week, the Engelbrecht’s stated that they had no other alternative on the property that they were proposed to rezone. I spoke with the land owner, Steve Wheeler, and he said that he would have no objections to giving them more land to rezone, or moving it away from the Donner’s property, being that the building site is only 50 foot off of their property line right now. His only concern would be if he would just leave him enough road frontage for whatever his children would want to do in the future, because he himself says that he has no plans to do anything with that agriculture land, you know, while he still owns it. That is all I have to say.

Commissioner Nix: This gentleman you’re referring to, he lives where now?

Ryan Hart: Steve Wheeler?

Commissioner Nix: Yeah.

Ryan Hart: He lives in St. Louis.

Commissioner Nix: Okay.

Ryan Hart: But, he is the owner of the agricultural land that they are leasing now.

Commissioner Nix: Okay. Thank you.

Ryan Hart: And their orchards are on. To my knowledge, he’s the owner of the land that they’re wanting to rezone. To my knowledge.

Commissioner Nix: You’d mentioned something about access to the industrial park there. Currently, the only access is if you go on up 57 and come back around, or go back down, there’s no back entrance to the industrial park at this time, are you saying that you heard, or you sensed that there will access to the back of the industrial park at some time?

Ryan Hart: The industrial park up there now?

Commissioner Nix: Yes.

Ryan Hart: No, I don’t think that there will be a back entrance to it. I’m saying that–

Commissioner Nix: Okay.

Ryan Hart: –turn lanes off of Highway 57, they were put in for the industrial park, but if they’re going to put, you know, a commercial lot on a residential road, would they need turn lanes off of the State Highway 57?

President Korb: So, if I’m understanding what you’re saying correctly, since the Area Planning Commission meeting, which was last Thursday, you’ve had conversations with Mr. Wheeler?

Ryan Hart: Yes, on the–

President Korb: So, as we’re looking at this map, the one that you’re looking at has got the white deal–

Ryan Hart: Yes.

President Korb: –you’re saying that Mr. Wheeler has said that he would sell them different property just to the left of where that, help me understand where Mr. Wheeler’s.....because my understanding was, that if Mr. Wheeler was going to do that, if I’m wrong on this please tell me, that it would be at a higher price to the Engelbrecht’s.

Ryan Hart: Well, I mean, it might be, whatever his price would be, if he wants to sell them more land, you know, extend that part that they want to rezone, or just move that chunk of land down a little bit away from the Donner’s.

President Korb: And, that’s my question is, is that what Mr. Wheeler told you that he would agree to do?

Ryan Hart: Yes. He is willing to look at it again, and try and get it a little bit further away from the Donner’s.

President Korb: Because that would then, does that cut up his parcel of land? I guess it would.

Ryan Hart: Well, he wouldn’t want to leave, still own a little piece between the Engelbrecht’s and the Donner’s. He might want to expand what they want to rezone.

President Korb: Got it.

Ryan Hart: To my knowledge of what he told me.

President Korb: Okay.

Ryan Hart: But, you know, the only thing that his concern was, was to leave him enough road frontage, you know, so he doesn’t, you know give all that up.

President Korb: Well, then that pushes the property closer to your residence, wouldn’t it?

Ryan Hart: Yes, it would.

President Korb: And, you’re response to that is?

Ryan Hart: If it goes through I’ll be moving.

President Korb: Okay. Okay. Alright, anybody else? Thank you.

Ryan Hart: You’re welcome.

Christina Donner: Hi, my name is Christina Donner, and I live at 16900 Petersburg Road, and that is the area that we’ve been talking about that abuts to the property that he’s wanting to zone C-4. I can tell you that I have been a resident in Vanderburgh County for at least 25 years. We’ve lived there 25 years in rural Vanderburgh County and in Scott county or district, because we just like it out there. The school system was really good. I can tell you that I raised two kids there. I can also tell you that I lost my son and my granddaughter in the tornado that went through the trailer park. One of my grandsons lived. This is the only thing now familiar to him. The only place. They lost their trailer completely. He lost everything. He likes coming out there because it is familiar. He stays in his dad’s bedroom, things like that. I asked them to please put up a fence in the back of the yard, because they are wanting to do an apple u-pick orchard that is just right behind our house. I said, that way it would keep our kids and our dog in, and would keep kids and people, you know, from coming into our yard. I was told by Bill Engelbrecht that he couldn’t afford it, or just didn’t see why it was feasible. Then he told me that he could put up poles and barbed wire. This leads me to tell you that the spring of 2004, we did buy from Terry Wheeler part of the land that is on the corner, or the hill that is just past their house, if you’re going the other direction. My daughter and her husband lived there for about two years, wanted to move, so, in 2006 we decided to sell. Mr. Engelbrecht came to us, approached us, and he wanted to buy that land, because he said it was precious to him, his grandmother or somebody had lived there, and he really liked that area. So, he gave us $9,000, in cash, for this area. So, as far as being able to afford anything, being, you know, the land going up, or he might be able to have to put up a little bit more money, is, I don’t know, it doesn’t make sense to me. So, he said that he would like to put a store up there, on the hill, but he was told that it would cost him, for two acres of land, and a large, block building barn that is already there, that it would cost him $80,000. Okay, and this land was owned by, he said his cousin, one of the Wheelers. We bought this from Terry Wheeler when we bought our land, did not include that. In the long run, because he said it was not feasible to buy that, he would have to make some improvements to it, said it wasn’t feasible to do that. In my opinion, I think that in the long run, that it would make more sense to buy that property, and, you know, recondition it, or whatever he would have to do to meet his standards. I would think that building there does need more work to the store, but it’s easy access to his crops, there’s plenty of parking area. The caretaker that does live in the small house that we sold to him would be right there on that property. There is very good visibility there, from Highway 57, because it is way up on a hill. So, the view and the atmosphere there would be perfect for an orchard. It is also a good area for hayrides, which he said that would probably happen there. Now, you tell me that $80,000 and a cousin that doesn’t want to sell, or is asking this amount of money would really be something that a man of this stature could not afford? Okay, so, he’ll come up here in a moment, okay, and I know that he will talk fast, he’ll talk loud, and he’ll counter attack everything, of course, that I’m saying, and all I have said that the cousins who own the land and they don’t want to sell, the store would look very nice that he wants to build. Oh, it will be landscaped and it will look nice and it will fit right in. This is just a good idea as to where he might be able to put this. I’m not saying, of course, that he could. There’s plenty of land out there that could be zoned for him to put his orchard. I’m not really opposed to him having one, but I don’t want one put where 50 foot from my property there would be a large, commercial building, and if there was a privacy fence there, I would either be, I would come in at night, say in my driveway, pull in, and instead of seeing the deer that I see in that field, I would see a large, commercial building, and/or a privacy fence, lights, people, whatever. I would rather, in my mind, I would rather see the deer, I would rather be able to see the sunset, that I’ve looked at for 25 years. That is what really bothers me. I think that, he did tell Joe, his son, that he wants to, you know, give him a chance, just like his father gave him a chance. Well, he, his dad is teaching him something, he is teaching him how to look at the almighty dollar, the bottom line is no regards for people or the residences that are being negatively affected by his selfish actions. So, Joe did keep telling my husband and I, when he came to our house, that he did not want to force us out of our home. The thing that I do care more about is that I would rather see the deer. So, I don’t really have anything much else to say, but I believe that all of you would much rather see some deer and sunset, than you would a large, commercial building and/or a private fence. That’s all I have to say.

Commissioner Tornatta: Could you please show me where you live again?

Christina Donner: I live just adjacent–

Commissioner Tornatta: Okay.

Christina Donner: –right there. There’s a large, log home that we built there 25 years ago.

Commissioner Tornatta: Alright.

Christina Donner: And, you’re looking at my house right now.

Commissioner Tornatta: And that entire parcel is yours?

Christina Donner: Yes. Our parcel goes all the way back, it would be adjacent to where he wants to–

Commissioner Tornatta: Right.

Christina Donner: –stop right there at the back.

Commissioner Tornatta: Okay, and then initially you said something about him building a fence, and now you’re not at all interested in a fence?

Christina Donner: He, yes, we’re interested in a fence, very.

Commissioner Tornatta: So–

Christina Donner: If that, if he would have to build that building there–

Commissioner Tornatta: Uh-huh.

Christina Donner: –then we would want a privacy fence.

Commissioner Tornatta: Okay.

Christina Donner: You know, and they have said, I believe that they would agree with that. So, at, you know, if I look out, I’m going to see either the privacy fence and/or this large building.

Commissioner Tornatta: Was that in the use and development?

Christina Donner: I’m sorry?

Commissioner Tornatta: It was not?

President Korb: The fence?

Commissioner Tornatta: Uh-huh.

President Korb: No. That was basically a gentleman’s agreement at the Area Plan.

Christina Donner: That was, yeah, and what he had told us at first was that instead of a fence, they wanted to put pine trees up. Well, you know, I don’t know about you, but it takes a long time for pine trees to grow up enough to obstruct your view of things. So, I think that they have said that a privacy fence could be something that they would, you know, talk about, they would agree with.

Commissioner Tornatta: And, how tall of a privacy fence would you be looking for?

Christina Donner: Well, what four to six foot. About a six or even eight. That’s still not gonna–

Commissioner Tornatta: I mean, normally you’re talking eight or twelve.

Christina Donner: Okay. A lot taller than me.

Commissioner Tornatta: Twelve’s a little big, I guess.

Christina Donner: A lot taller than me.

President Korb: Did you say twelve?

Commissioner Tornatta: I was going to say eight foot. Like a six to eight foot.

Christina Donner: Yeah, so even though, you know, if you can imagine from our point of view, yeah, you’re going to have a privacy fence, but you’re going to still see that big building right there. Like they said, it’s only going to be 50 foot from our property. We measured that, and that’s not very far away from my house, or my property. So, it would be hard to not have a fence also in the back. I have a dog, I have grandkids, and they wouldn’t even be able to get out and run around. The dog is so friendly, you know, she wouldn’t hurt nobody, she would probably run, jump and, you know, lick them to death. But, they would have a problem going out and playing, even if there’s barbed wire and poles in the backyard.

Commissioner Tornatta: Right.

Christina Donner: So, that’s basically what I have to say.

Commissioner Tornatta: Alright.

Christina Donner: Okay?

Commissioner Tornatta: Thank you.

Christina Donner: Thanks.

President Korb: Any other remonstrators?

David Donner: Hi, my name is David Donner, and I live at 16900 Petersburg Road. The same one she lives at. She didn’t leave me a whole lot to say. I would like to talk about the fence. I know Joe gave me a piece of paper here earlier about a fence, but regardless of a fence or not, what they’re planning to do here is put a commercial site right next to a residential site. I just can’t perceive that you guys would let this happen on a residential place. If you could just come out there and look at the land and everything, and look at the area and see what they’re planning on doing. I’m going to be boxed in, all the way around. They’re going to put a u-pick orchard behind my house, and then this commercial lot right here. Across the street there’s a commercial lot that’s abandoned. So, you know what’s it going to do to the price of my land. It’s going to go straight downhill. I will be able to get nothing. Now, I don’t know about you, but when I built this house out here, I built it by hand. Nothing was given to me. I built the house myself, and it’s got to be worth some money now, but now this is going to happen, and I’ve got a feeling that it’s just going to go right downhill. It’s going to be worth little to nothing. I’ve lived in Vanderburgh County all my life. I know Bill hasn’t, and his son don’t, they live in Warrick County. I feel like I’ve paid my taxes, I’ve paid my dues, I don’t think that this should go on. There’s plenty of places to put it, even if he would expand it over to at least get it away from me some, you know. I mean, there’s only 50 foot off of my property this is going to go on. Like I know Ryan said that the Wheeler’s said they would give him more room, that would be great for me. I’m not opposed to the apple orchard being there. I think it’s a great thing. I just don’t want it right on top of me, you know. Last week at the Area Planning Commission, one of the Commissioners was sitting there talking about how great it was to have the orchard on the north side, I grew up on the north side in the North Park area, and, believe me, they didn’t build that building and everything right next to the residential people, it’s up on the hill away from everybody, and everybody can enjoy it. That’s not what’s going to happen here. All I ask is that if you can, come out and look and see what’s going on, and, please, don’t put this right next to my house. Anything else?

Commissioner Tornatta: That’s it.

David Donner: Okay.

Commissioner Tornatta: Thank you.

Connie Engelbrecht: I’m that other orchard. I’m Connie Engelbrecht. I was in front of you guys a while back rezoning for the same thing as a C-4 status. I also have a lot of education in what they are trying to do in agri-tourism. That was always what we did at Evansville. Their store was more of a high end market. It’s a very nice market, but we had two different ideas. My concern for these people are, when I got the phone call today, is that property was C-4 property up there in Newburgh, and when things got bad it got developed. You’re setting a C-4 property that could very easily turn into something else if things go bad, and it’s going to be right next to two residential areas. My other concern is, I looked up who owns the properties, and I don’t see Bill Engelbrecht or Joey Engelbrecht on any of the properties, at all. I do know there is a lease, and that lease is with some certain cousins, and I can tell you right now my mom’s probably having a fit. She was a Wheeler, and that’s her homestead. What I had suggested today was, as an agri-tourism business, this is something that’s going on right now in Indianapolis with a friend of mine, there is no need to rezone Ag. Agri-tourism, under Indiana statutes is considered a sustainable agriculture. Okay? It’s not considered a by-product or fantasy land, it’s actually for education purposes for people to be able to come out and enjoy a farm, farm experiences, corn mazes, you know, apple festivals, apple butter, I mean, that’s the kind of thing, apple picking, of course. Alright, that’s the kind of the thing that they recognize with agri-tourism. Quite honestly, I’m just totally blown away by this, because of the fact we did separate, and I really don’t think there’s going to probably be some legal concerns on my end. This isn’t concerning you. My concern is for these people who are also shirttail relation of my mother, and of the Wheeler ground, and I can tell you right now the main person who owns that property that would be ideal, where the homestead was, probably wouldn’t sell it. She probably won’t sell it. She’s not here because she’s in Tennessee. She owns almost all the Ag ground around besides Steve Wheeler, who I think is well ill-informed of what’s going on. Because the family agreement was he stays in Warrick, I stay in Vanderburgh. So, I just want you to look at the fact that he owns none of that ground in his name. That house he bought is in a lady’s name, a Ms. Gresham, it happens to be his mother-in-law. The piece of property he’s trying to rezone is in his sister-in-law’s name. This concerns me. That’s all I got. Thank you.

President Korb: Any more remonstrators? Summation? Or, actually questions from Commissioners?

Commissioner Nix: I do have one to Mr. Morley or Mr. Engelbrecht.

President Korb: Sure, go ahead.

Commissioner Nix: I guess, what I’m having a hard time understanding, and this was your pleasure to do, but why exactly right there?

Bill Engelbrecht: Okay.

Commissioner Nix: I mean, why not over 50 feet to the west? I mean, I’m looking at this parcel here, and I don’t know that there’s ten feet between the edge of the house, and if there was a fence put up where that fence would be.

Bill Engelbrecht: Okay, let’s go back to some of the things that were said.

Commissioner Nix: Please answer my question.

Bill Engelbrecht: I’m going to answer that question, yeah.

Commissioner Nix: Okay.

President Korb: I’m sorry, your name for the record?

Bill Engelbrecht: Bill Engelbrecht.

President Korb: Great.

Bill Engelbrecht: The property that Mrs. Donner was describing as on the hill, where the dairy barn used to be, the property right there, I did try to buy that corner from Tim, Tom and Terry Wheeler and Rosemary Wheeler, which is up on, where she was talking about–

Commissioner Nix: Show me where that’s at.

Joe Engelbrecht: It’s mostly everything outside of the red–

Bill Engelbrecht: No, wait a minute. He’s talking about the house.

Commissioner Nix: Janet, if you could please. Well, do we have a pointer? I don’t know if a pointer would even work, but maybe if we could scan down.

Joe Engelbrecht: It’s just south of the bottom red line there.

Bill Engelbrecht: See where the curve is there on the red line there?

Commissioner Nix: I don’t see red, so I –

Bill Engelbrecht: Right there where the pointer is now.

President Korb: Look on your screen.

Bill Engelbrecht: That property right there where the pointer is.

Commissioner Nix: It just all looks grey to me.

President Korb: Oh, you don’t, you’re color blind?

Commissioner Nix: Yeah.

President Korb: Okay.

Commissioner Nix: Okay, I got ya’.

Bill Engelbrecht: That was the property that Mrs. Donner was talking about there.

Commissioner Nix: On the east side of Petersburg Road?

Bill Engelbrecht: Right, right.

Joe Engelbrecht: West.

Bill Engelbrecht: On the west side, I’m sorry.

Commissioner Nix: West side, okay.

Bill Engelbrecht: We tried to, we talked to Rosemary Wheeler, Tim, Tom and Terry Wheeler, which is her sons, who own that property. We wanted to buy that property there and take that dairy barn and remodel it into a market, and then build another barn behind it for our packing and grading and cold storage. They said they did not want to sell at any cost right now. They have plans that they want to keep that all open for future development someday possibility. So, they would not sell it to us. The ground that she was talking about, they said that they would take two and half acres across the road, which is on that curve, which everybody said was dangerous, and they would sell that for $90,000 for two and a half acres. For agricultural ground I thought that was a little steep. Okay? I am doing this so we, I’m going about the answer about the ground, so, I got with Steve and we talked about, what our idea was to put the market back on the farm where the orchard is. Where you see it there in the, right there in that area.

Commissioner Nix: North of the proposed on this drawing I’ve got?

Bill Engelbrecht: Yes, well, it’s to the west and northwest. But, the Planning Commission guy told us that we would have to put a 24 foot concrete road and a new bridge across the ditch to go back to the market to rezone it C-4. You can see that’s probably better than a quarter of a mile back to that building. That would be a very expensive road. Okay? So, I was talking to Steve, and I didn’t want to put the building on the curve, like they said, that’s a dangerous curve right there, so, we went up to the straightest area on Petersburg Road that was property that Steve still owns to put our market there. The reason we picked the spot where the market is on your papers there, was because west of that is very low ground. Where all your drainage runs to, it’s very, very low. Where this property is it sits high enough where we could do proper drainage for the building, the market, and the houses that are in that area. Does that answer your question?

Commissioner Nix: Okay.

Bill Engelbrecht: Okay. Can I go on with some other stuff? Or, do you have any other questions?

President Korb: I’m just curious, and it’s been kind of muddied up here a bit, do you own the proposed area that we’re talking about rezoning?

Bill Engelbrecht: We are going to purchase it–

President Korb: From Steve?

Bill Engelbrecht: –from Steve if we can get it rezoned.

President Korb: Okay.

Bill Engelbrecht: That’s why we haven’t purchased it yet, because I didn’t see any use in buying it until we had it rezoned.

Commissioner Nix: This area just to the north of that, who owns that?

Bill Engelbrecht: Steve.

Commissioner Nix: Steve owns that also?

Bill Engelbrecht: Uh-huh.

Commissioner Nix: Okay. Will that be part of the option to purchase?

Bill Engelbrecht: Yes, we will purchase that.

Commissioner Nix: But, you don’t need to have that rezoned because that will be–

Bill Engelbrecht: You’re talking about would be–

Joe Engelbrecht: Can I come show you?

Commissioner Nix: She’s got a pointer right there.

President Korb: Sure, come on up.

Commissioner Nix: This right here.

Joe Engelbrecht: (Inaudible).

Commissioner Nix: And this will remain agricultural, because all you will have on there is, okay. Gotcha.

President Korb: Okay.

Bill Engelbrecht: Any other questions on–

President Korb: So, Steve is family, right?

Bill Engelbrecht: He is my cousin, yes.

President Korb: Okay.

Bill Engelbrecht: He is my uncle and aunt’s son.

President Korb: Alright. Well, you know what the next obvious question is?

Commissioner Nix: No?

President Korb: Go ahead and ask it. If I’m going directly to my left, is that west?

Commissioner Nix: Yes.

President Korb: I mean, you said the other night that you would be willing to put up a fence, right?

Bill Engelbrecht: Yes. We have a letter stating that we will.

Joe Engelbrecht: Joseph Engelbrecht. (Inaudible).

President Korb: Okay, what happens if we ask Cousin Steve to move that property line a little bit more over to the left, or to the west, which gives the Donners some breathing room? How much more cost is that to you?

Bill Engelbrecht: Well–

Commissioner Tornatta: He says it’s a drainage issue.

Bill Engelbrecht: –it’s a drainage issue. But, it could probably be moved over somewhat, you know, maybe another hundred feet. But, the reason we put it there is because–

President Korb: Sure.

Bill Engelbrecht: –Steve said he wanted enough area there in case someday his children decided to develop that or what they wanted, he wanted–

Joe Engelbrecht: He didn’t want to be landlocked.

Bill Engelbrecht: He didn’t want to be landlocked where he couldn’t get back to that other property.

Commissioner Nix: Can you set that to scale? Show me a hundred feet if you could.

President Korb: Do you see where we’re going from with this?

Bill Engelbrecht: I know what you’re going with, yeah, but he told me that he wanted what 200 feet?

Joe Engelbrecht: Yeah.

Bill Engelbrecht: He wanted at least 200 feet from Mr. Hart’s property to where our property would be.

Commissioner Tornatta: I’ve got a question for Mr. Morley, if you guys–

President Korb: No, go ahead.

Commissioner Tornatta: On a situation where there’s a privacy issue between a C-4, whether it’s heavy manufacturing or anything of that capacity, what type of buffer zones have you seen in the past? Whether it be pine trees and a fence, or, I mean, what is going to diminish the building being so close to them, diminish the effects of that building being so close?

Jim Morley, Jr.: On previous projects, I can tell you I’ve seen everything from nothing to the berm and fence that you see around the Target on the east side, and that would probably be the two extremes. Obviously, trees grow taller than fences do, which I think is what they proposed to begin with. From the Area Plan Commission meeting that wasn’t received favorably. The way I understood it, they said they would rather have a fence than trees. But, obviously, trees grow taller, so they obstruct more view of a building.

Commissioner Tornatta: At what point? I mean, I guess, we’re talking about putting in small trees to start, and at some point that’s going to take care of it. In the interim it probably is not going to take care of any line of sight issues. So, I guess, what I’m saying is how do you propose that buffer when a tree is not going to get the job done?

Bill Engelbrecht: Well, let me explain something. I’m open to options on that. The only thing is, you cannot put a berm along there because that would flood his property. We have to worry about his drainage–

Joe Engelbrecht: Mr. Donner’s front yard.

Bill Engelbrecht: –Mr. Donner’s drainage coming across to go across on down through the field, okay? So, we don’t want to do that. So, it was Mr. Donner’s and Mrs. Donner said they would like a privacy fence up there. We agreed to that. Then, outside, I guess, when she was talking about a fence on the north end of her property, she was talking about her dog and all this stuff, and, you know, we were just talking, and the only thing that’s going to be behind her is a u-pick orchard, a small one, not a big one, that’s going to be open two months of the year, and that’s it. I told her that I would be willing to put anything up there they wanted. If you want me to put a barbed wire up, I would. I would put up anything you wanted me to put up back there as far as a fencing, but I wasn’t going to put a high, expensive wooden fence across the back end of the property. That’s her dog, not my dog, okay? You’re supposed to keep your dog on your property anyway, I think that’s a county ordinance. So, but I would be willing to work with her, because I’ve got some fence in the barn we could probably put up there to keep the dog in her yard. I could give it to them and they could put it up. If they wanted to keep the dog out of the orchard. There was some other issues that I wanted to address, if that’s possible.

President Korb: Sure.

Bill Engelbrecht: Okay, on, when Mr. Hart was up here, he was concerned about the curve, and so was I. That first piece of property up there is on a curve, and it would make it a little more dangerous. The second piece of property they talked about across the street that the other Wheeler’s were willing to sell is on the curve. The third piece of property the other Wheeler’s wanted to sell me was on the right hand side, but it was still $90,000 for two and a half acres. So, I talked to Steve and we came to an agreement that we would put it on the straightest stretch, where that market sits at there’s a big, long straight stretch of road right there. If you can’t see anybody turning in and out of that place, you shouldn’t be on the road. Okay? I wouldn’t, you know, I was going with, I don’t have a problem with moving it further away from the Donner’s house, if Steve agrees to it. Now, evidently he talked to Steve today, and maybe he’s had a change of heart about it, but when I talked to him and set all this up this was what he wanted, okay? Also, other than the price, with Mr. Hart that’s about all I had to discuss with that. I don’t plan on doing any hayrides. I don’t know where that came from. Maybe Joe said something, but that would be, this is going to be Joe’s farm. This is not Bill Engelbrecht’s farm. This is going to be Joe’s farm. Eventually it will be named a different name than Bill Engelbrecht’s Orchard and Farm Market. Okay? This is my son’s opportunity, and I’m trying to watch his dollars and cents, because he’s 25 years old, he has no money, and he’s starting from scratch. He’s got to borrow this money to build this building, and to set up his orchard. Okay? So, it is a family, fourth generation standing here to go on with the orchard. Now, I did live in Vanderburgh County, just for the record, for 22 years. I was raised on the other farm on the north side, worked there until I was near 50, and then dad passed away and some things happened with the family and stuff and I no longer have anything to do with it. Okay? Warrick County has been developed, I paid dearly to do that with my family. We’re going to keep a market there as an outlet for Joe’s products, because my youngest daughter wants to run that market in Newburgh. We want to be able to sell our own products, grow our own fruit, our own vegetables, and that’s why we came out to where Steve’s property is. As far as the agreement Connie was talking about, that has nothing to do with Joe, and I’m not sure what it is myself. I thought just differently that my mom, being that she grew up on this property as a child, for all her young years, that she would be kind of proud. In fact, Uncle Bill, which is Steve’s father, worked for my dad for many years. He was really into the orchard business of his own. I don’t think he would be too disappointed with it either. So, that’s about all I have to say. If there’s any other questions you might have, I would be glad to answer them.

Commissioner Tornatta: I mean, I think the problem I have with it as it sits here, and, of course, we just got this 35 minutes ago, but I would like to see some type of substantial buffer between the housing that’s there, existing today.

Joe Engelbrecht: What would you recommend?

Bill Engelbrecht: What would you recommend?

Commissioner Tornatta: Not this. This is what we’re approving. I mean, that’s, unfortunately that, I’m not going to, I can’t build for you, but, and not to be short with that answer, but, I mean, that’s something for you to determine. But, this right here is not–

Joe Engelbrecht: It is very vague. It’s something more along the lines I think that Mr. Donner and I, you know, we need to come to a somewhat (inaudible) on that, a middle ground there.

Commissioner Tornatta: Right, and it’s something you can do. I don’t mind progress. I don’t mind having these types of things. I think they’re wonderful out in the community. But, at the same time, this proposal right there lends me to not look favorable on it, just for the fact–

Joe Engelbrecht: It was more or less me showing that I will do something. You know, something on paper that you guys could see that I will do something to buffer those two properties.

Commissioner Tornatta: Right, well, and, I guess, still I’m talking about the initial property and initial rezoning where you have it there, being so close to that house. It doesn’t lend me any satisfaction that I know what that buffer’s going to look like, or how far it’s going to be back, and that it is going to be away from that house, and it is addressing just some issues that people have. With the expanse amount of land that’s out there, that it’s crowding these houses that have been there for a period of time. So, that’s really where my worry is at this point.

Commissioner Nix: Not trying to reinvent the wheel here, have you looked at where you show this proposed, this area, just to the west of there with a parcel that would accommodate that, with a lane going back?

Bill Engelbrecht: It’s too low.

Commissioner Nix: This is all too low?

Bill Engelbrecht: To the west of that property.

Commissioner Nix: Right back here?

Bill Engelbrecht: Yes, that’s all too low.

Commissioner Nix: Even as orchard, and then with a drive going back otherwise? I guess, to share the same concern Commissioner Tornatta’s got, and I mentioned it a minute ago, there’s a lot of ground out there and to plop this thing down within ten feet of somebody’s house just really bothers me.

Joe Engelbrecht: The biggest thing was to have road frontage, you know.

Commissioner Nix: I understand that, but I know if I was a neighbor I would be upset. I know that if someone was wanting to do this next to one of you guy’s houses, I think you would be upset too. To me it just doesn’t make sense. It looks to me like there’s other options to do this. I’m not against this at all. I think it’s a great idea, but I’m looking here right now and I don’t, on this drawing I don’t see any space between the edge of this house and the property line. That just doesn’t make any sense. I mean, there’s all kinds of ground out here to develop, and why you would put this right here where it’s at is just beyond me.

Bill Engelbrecht: Okay.

Commissioner Nix: I’m familiar with the area out there. I am.

Bill Engelbrecht: The number one reason, our number one goal was from the people at the market to be able to see the existing orchard from the site. Okay? That’s why we wanted to put–

Joe Engelbrecht: (Inaudible).

Bill Engelbrecht: –I know, but that’s why, see that big, existing orchard in red there?

Commissioner Nix: Uh-huh.

Bill Engelbrecht: That is very visible from where this location is.

Commissioner Nix: I understand that.

Bill Engelbrecht: That’s on a hill there. Anything to the west of that proposed property is too low to put anything, as far as orchard trees. You can’t put trees in low ground, they won’t live. They’ll get wet feet and they’ll die.

Commissioner Nix: Okay.

Bill Engelbrecht: So, you have to put it on a knob, a hill where you get some reasonable drainage to drain these trees so that they will live. Because fruit trees, especially peach trees don’t like wet feet. You know, stone fruit just does not like wet feet, which, I mean, roots being wet.

Commissioner Nix: I understand.

Bill Engelbrecht: Okay? So, if you go from there, and you go across the street or down the street to the other Wheeler property, we’re talking $90,000 for two and a half acres, or $20,000 for two and a half acres. That makes a big difference on a young man’s pocket book.

Commissioner Nix: I understand that.

Bill Engelbrecht: Okay? To me, I don’t know if you went and tried to put a market up on the east end of the proposed in yellow there, there’s no way to get to it, because there’s property in front of that and it’s kind of landlocked back there.

Commissioner Tornatta: Who owns that property that you’re saying would be landlocked?

Commissioner Nix: That’s the area you’re calling the proposed orchard?

Bill Engelbrecht: Well, the proposed orchard is also part of the Wheeler Trust, okay?

Commissioner Tornatta: Yeah, but the bigger proposed is what I’m looking at.

Joe Engelbrecht: Then everything on the other side–

Bill Engelbrecht: Pardon me?

Commissioner Tornatta: The bigger proposed orchard.

Bill Engelbrecht: Oh, that’s Steve Wheeler’s property too.

Commissioner Tornatta: Is that too low?

Joe Engelbrecht: You’re still a quarter mile from the road.

Bill Engelbrecht: You’re still a long ways to get from the road. See where the rock road goes back there off the curve.

Commissioner Nix: That’s not a maintained road is it?

Bill Engelbrecht: No, that’s just a rock driveway.

President Korb: And, you’ve been told if you put that store there, you’re going to have to build a concrete road?

Bill Engelbrecht: Yeah, a 24 foot one, and a new bridge across the ditch. You guys know how much that costs?

Commissioner Nix: We sure do.

President Korb: Well, I mean, I disagree with you two guys in that I think they’ve gone to every possible length to make this thing work in a different direction than plopping it right down next to the Donner’s house. I really don’t think that if Mr. Wheeler were to even give you an extra hundred foot to the west, not give, but lease or sell, that that would really bring any kind of relief to the Donner’s. I mean, I think there would still be issues. Then you’ve got Mr. Hart who’s saying that if this thing passes he’s going to sell his land anyway. Did I hear that right, Mr.Hart?

Ryan Hart: Yes, sir.

President Korb: So, if we vote yes tonight, there’s a “For Sale” sign in your yard within a month?

Ryan Hart: As soon as I can get it.

President Korb: Okay. So, I mean, the question becomes is this appropriate land use? I totally recognize the fact that there is an emotional drag here on this. There just is. I mean, you can’t get away from that.

Commissioner Nix: I don’t disagree with the term “appropriate land use”. I disagree, with what I’m looking at right now, with where it’s at. With where it’s at. I mean, I think if this was either to the west of that, the area on the north side of there, or somehow working there with a lane going back, I think this would be very appropriate and I wouldn’t have a problem with it. But to put this right there where it’s at, I just, I wouldn’t want it next to my house.

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: You know, you have about three options. One is for somebody to make a motion to pass, and then you vote on it. Another would be to table this, and you do want to take action, of course, within 90 days of the Plan Commission meeting, or the Plan Commission vote automatically stands. Or, refer it back to the Plan Commission--

Commissioner Nix: Without a vote?

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Yeah, without a vote. Refer it back to the Plan Commission, in which case it would start again, would give an opportunity for the petitioner to continue to maybe to work with the remonstrators who are here, and, at least, expand the use and development commission, commitment to provide for this fencing, or trees, or both, or whatever. Right now there’s nothing in the record, except your willingness to do that, but nothing that would require you to do that. So, those are your options.

Commissioner Tornatta: What, my question is, and I know we’ve dealt with this before, but, at what point are they starting all over again, versed, at what point are they just pausing?

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: If it’s tabled, we’re pausing. If it’s referred back to the Plan Commission, they start over again, publish notice and have an opportunity to amend the redevelopment, the use and development commitment. So, they would give new notice. If this could be done by tomorrow, as I was checking with the Plan Commission, it can be heard at the May meeting. That’s most unlikely. So, it would have to be refiled for the June meeting. That’s just the options that are available to the Commissioners.

President Korb: As I’m looking at the existing orchard, those are trees that have already been planted, guys?

Bill Engelbrecht: Yes, sir.

President Korb: And, as I’m looking at proposed orchards, those are, nothing’s been planted?

Bill Engelbrecht: No.

Joe Engelbrecht: That’s the farthest thing off the yellow part.

Bill Engelbrecht: The yellow part–

President Korb: Right.

Bill Engelbrecht: –we discussed with Steve that in the future, if we wanted to expand our peach production–

President Korb: Right.

Bill Engelbrecht: –there’s a big hill right there, it’s a nice knob to put another orchard, he said he’d be willing to lease that to us too also.

President Korb: Okay. Alright.

Commissioner Tornatta: As not to restart this train, I would open to continue this.

Commissioner Nix: To table it?

Commissioner Tornatta: To table it.

President Korb: But, I guess, my question would be, what’s the possible outcome there? I mean, you’ve got, obviously, family issues here, which is unfortunate, but, you’ve also got the Donner’s, and you’ve got Mr. Hart, and even if they did adjust that a hundred feet to the west, that gives you the buffer that you all are looking for, but does that really help take care of the Donner’s in the way that they want? Obviously, Mr. Hart will go ahead and put his land up for sale.

Commissioner Tornatta: Well, I guess, what I’m looking at is, I think the Engelbrecht’s here see a pattern of a way that something might go, and they might be more inclined to make other things work with the neighbors if they’re going to do so, or adjust their request, and, if that’s the case, then they can choose to do that if they want to proceed with this business.

President Korb: Donner’s, what happens if they put a 100 foot buffer there, or a 50 foot buffer, instead of right on top of your door? I mean, I know it’s not palatable, but how do you feel about that? So, really, anything they decide, or anything that we’re able to accomplish is not going to be satisfactory to you? That’s the bottom line.

David Donner: (Inaudible).

Commissioner Tornatta: Could you move to the mic? I’m sorry.

David Donner: I would have to actually get out there and look at it and see, you know. I stepped off whatever it was, two hundred and something feet there, to me this looks, there’s a lot out of, what you’re looking at is a lot of out of scale. Because once you step off at the head there, there’s a lot of land between Hart’s and us right there. I would think there’s at least 400 feet there, 600 feet, wouldn’t there?

Bill Engelbrecht: There could be. I don’t know.

David Donner: Four to six hundred feet right there. Yeah, I mean, we would have to scale it off, I don’t know. Yeah, if they could put it in there, and Steve would still have his 200 foot buffer in there that he needs for his land back there or whatever he’s going to do.

Commissioner Tornatta: Okay, now, and you were the house closest to the proposed rezoning?

David Donner: Yes. I’m right there at 16900 Petersburg Road.

Commissioner Tornatta: Okay, and we’ll have to get permission from the other Commissioners, of course, but, I guess, what I’m curious about is, how much dialogue have you had with Mr. Engelbrecht, and could there be on-going dialogue with Mr. Engelbrecht?

David Donner: How long have we been talking?

Commissioner Tornatta: Yeah, to come to some type of consensus.

David Donner: About zero, but we have talked to Joe once.

Commissioner Tornatta: Okay, would you feel more comfortable if some initial dialogue, or maybe continued dialogue would go along, and then we could hear back from you?

David Donner: Sure, sure.

Commissioner Tornatta: I mean, I guess, if you’re not desperately opposed–

David Donner: Like I said, I’m not opposed to the orchard happening here. I mean, it’s a wonderful thing, but, you know, this right here, right on top of me, I mean, there’s not 50 feet off my barn there to where he’s going to have his pole barn. You know, to me that’s a commercial lot. I mean, what if I would decide to sell someday? I mean, what’s my place going to be worth?

Commissioner Tornatta: Well, then you would have to not be in favor of the project?

David Donner: Right.

Commissioner Tornatta: I mean, that’s what advice I’d give you, but on the other hand, if you think it would help and would be an asset, at some point, then you would, at that point, be in favor of the project. If it were me, I would be trying to work out my best scenario with the developer.

David Donner: Right.

Commissioner Tornatta: At that point. So, I guess, what I’m saying, and, you know, the wishes of the Commission–

David Donner: I would have to see what he comes up with.

Commissioner Tornatta: –that I would like to see dialogue between not only you, but some of the other remonstrators to see if there’s any amicable way of working some of these issues out before it comes back here. That’s one opinion of three.

David Donner: Right.

Commissioner Tornatta: So, if we were to continue this, and that’s just been proposed, and you could get together and talk about some of these issues and see if we could come to some type of consensus, that would be what we would like.

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Then you would have the option during the period that it’s continued, the next Commissioners meeting is May the 13^th, if in talking to the remonstrators we did come up with a plan of action that’s agreeable to everybody, and if they want that in writing, then you would have to amend your use and development commitment, which would mean, essentially starting over with the Plan Commission. Then it wouldn’t be heard on May the 13^th, you would be starting over, and, so, that’s what your option would be. It would be June sometime before you would get your final answer.

President Korb: Commissioner Nix?

Bill Engelbrecht: You know, we’re probably a year or two years before we even start construction, okay? There’s a lot to be done before we get to that point.

President Korb: So, you’re not wanting to start this like next month?

Bill Engelbrecht: We’re not going to start this this year. You’re not going to see, because there’s a farmer that still has a lease on that ground until the end of the year. So, I can’t even touch it until he’s done with his lease, the farmer that’s leasing the property from Steve now, okay? His lease terminates at the end of the year.

Commissioner Tornatta: So, that would give you ample opportunity to work out any of the issues with the neighbors or what have you.

Bill Engelbrecht: Yeah, I mean, I’m not trying to make anybody mad here, and I don’t want to start off with having ill feelings with my neighbors. That’s the last thing I want to do.

Commissioner Tornatta: Right.

Bill Engelbrecht: They don’t believe it, and they don’t think I’ve tried everything. They think I’ve got all this money, you know, I don’t. You know, whenever you own your own business everybody thinks you have lots of money. If anybody’s looked out lately, the economy’s pretty bad, development’s pretty poor right now. So, it’s not there, Mr. Donner. This is going to be his financing, not mine.

President Korb: Uh-huh.

Bill Engelbrecht: I’m trying to set this up for my son, not for me. Believe me, if I had my way, I would have retired and got a job at Ace Hardware or something. Do you know what I’m saying? I’ve already put in two orchards, this third one is a tough one for me, I’m getting older, okay? So, I have exhausted every possible place to put a farm market on property that he can afford, that would be practicality for a little u-pick orchard behind it. That’s the key. It’s not the market. If we just wanted to put a market there, we could probably go up on 57 there, find a little spot to slide it into. But, we’re trying to put six acres of apple trees back there where people don’t have to drive to the orchard, they can walk out behind the market, go pick their apples, and pick a few pumpkins, and come back to the market, that’s what he’s trying to accomplish.

Commissioner Tornatta: Right.

Bill Engelbrecht: Okay? And, to go west of there it’s all too low from that spot. That is the highest point on that piece of tract of 36 acres there that you could do this on. So, we’re kind of at a landlock as far as what we’re trying to do with it. We’re not putting up a fancy building. It’s going to be a pole barn with a dressed up cedar front, with a porch, a front porch. Okay? It’s going to have a parking lot, which they require us to do in the front for so many parking spaces. It will be asphalt, it will have a rock driveway around it. It’s only going to be open probably what, nine months of the year? It’s not going to be open 12 months a year. It’s not a Wal-Mart.

Commissioner Tornatta: Right.

Bill Engelbrecht: You know, I don’t know if we’ll have any traffic out there at all. Being as they might be all mad at me and nobody will come, but, you know, I’m just trying to get Joey set up here is what I’m trying to do, guys.

Commissioner Tornatta: I understand. Okay, just–

President Korb: Yes, come one.

Connie Engelbrecht: (Inaudible).

Commissioner Tornatta: Hold on, you’ve got–

President Korb: You’ve got to speak into the mic.

Connie Engelbrecht: (Inaudible).

Commissioner Tornatta: Hold on, hold on, you’ll just have to come up here.

Connie Engelbrecht: My point is, for Joey’s sake, he would be better off leaving that land zoned Ag. He could put a farm market, you can sell direct markets, you can sell everything you grow, and you can sell anything grown locally at these markets without rezoning.

President Korb: But, that doesn’t take care of the problem with the Donner’s and Mr. Hart.

Connie Engelbrecht: My sentiment is, they have a huge market in Newburgh as a year round market. The problem is simply this, this town, this area, you’re going to have probably two orchards going out and no orchards left if we end up in this battle. I believe Joey’s a good grower, I think he does a good job, he’s my nephew, I wouldn’t have a problem working along with Joey on that property, maybe even leasing some of my store space to him. That’s what I’m looking towards. The point is, leaving it Ag, he’s going to be able to go in and get Rural Development grants, Rural Grower grants, he can actually do something with it, and not cost him a fortune, because he’s a first timer. This is rural development.

Commissioner Tornatta: Right.

Connie Engelbrecht: I had to rezone, let me tell you, I had to rezone C-4 because I’m in the city limits. I didn’t want to do it. I had to in order to obtain a loan. I was non-conforming, non-conforming agriculture does not get a loan, okay? I tried everything. That’s where James Sr. of Morley and Associates zoned me C-4 on the top area there, and, basically I gave ten feet to the city for Christ Road and ten feet to Weaver Road, and I gave a lot of stuff up. I mean, there’s no car lots, no gas stations, nothing like that, and I did that just mainly because it was the only way for me to obtain a loan. With what Joey’s doing, he would be better off, I would feel, he needs to look into it, into the Rural Development grants and the Rural Development loans and the FSA loans–

Commissioner Tornatta: Hold on, hold on, we’re getting way outside–

Connie Engelbrecht: I know–

Commissioner Tornatta: –the box here.

Connie Engelbrecht: I’m just trying to say there’s other options.

Commissioner Tornatta: I do appreciate that, but we’re just kind of cruising outside of what we’re looking at here, and we’re looking at a rezoning.

Connie Engelbrecht: There’s also two people that aren’t here that are involved.

Commissioner Tornatta: If that’s the wishes of the petitioner, then they can do that in front of this body.

Connie Engelbrecht: Just as a suggestion.

Commissioner Tornatta: Thank you.

Connie Engelbrecht: Also, there’s a couple of people that aren’t here that I think should be.

President Korb: Well, I feel like that tabling it doesn’t do us much good. Simply because the Donner’s won’t be happy with anything that goes in there, and Mr. Hart’s going to sell no matter what goes in there, if this gets rezoned.

Commissioner Tornatta: I don’t, I didn’t hear that sentiment. They haven’t talked. So, at this point I don’t know that that’s the case. Mr. Donner, I guess, led me to believe that he would like to talk with the Engelbrecht’s.

President Korb: I mean, I don’t mind tabling it, that isn’t what I’m saying. If there is some wiggle room here, and you all can work this out amicably, then that would be the greatest way to do that.

Commissioner Tornatta: Yeah.

President Korb: But, clearly, it’s not going to work out with Mr. Hart because he wants nothing there.

Commissioner Tornatta: Well, he has an opportunity to talk to Mr. Engelbrecht, if that’s the case or not, that’s his wishes.

President Korb: Right.

Commissioner Tornatta: We’re going to let, we would, in that capacity, we would let these individuals talk. If he came down and decided that he wanted to work something out, that’s, you know, a day change, your minds change. So, sometimes that will happen. Not knowing if that’s the case, not to put any words in your mouth, however, it would give some time to let some things air out and see if there’s some type of agreement that can be met. At this time I would make a motion to continue this hearing.

Commissioner Nix: Until what time? I mean–

Commissioner Tornatta: There’s a 90 day stipulation. It’s a statute.

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Well, the statute says, when was the meeting of the Plan Commission?

Janet Greenwell: The Plan Commission recommended approval on the 10^th.

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Of?

Janet Greenwell: Of this month.

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Of April? If, April, May, June, July, if by the 10^th of July this body has not acted, it will be automatically approved, because the Plan Commission did it.

Commissioner Nix: We can request that it come back to this body before then.

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Sure.

Commissioner Tornatta: Yeah.

President Korb: Mr. Morley, I mean, you’ve kind of, I’m going to ask you to be the neutralizing factor here. I don’t know how much experience you’ve had in dealing with the Donner’s or Mr. Hart, and really that’s immaterial to me, but do you feel like there is some room for adjustment? I mean, obviously, Joe and his dad want to open a market, and I understand why that is. I mean, I don’t have a problem understanding the economics of it all, and have no desire to put Joe into a situation financially where he gets in over his head. That would be a terrible thing to have happen. So, help me understand, as their professional, what do you think?

Jim Morley, Jr.: It really is, most of the, I believe this would be most like all other things when it comes to rezoning and happening next to you, it becomes usually more of an emotional issue than it is anything else. That varies by person. I mean, maybe something can be worked out, and maybe nothing can be worked out. It really would depend on the flexibility and how much people have their heels dug in.

President Korb: Am I hearing, Commissioner Nix and Commissioner Tornatta, basically say if there was a larger buffer this wouldn’t bother you as much? Here’s why I’m asking, not asking to bait, but, I mean, I feel like they’ve got to have some sort of a benchmark of where to start and where to get to.

Commissioner Nix: I would like to hear the other, the families that live around that, that discussion to take place. But, once again, there’s a lot of property out there, and I know you’ve explained the circumstances here, but I wouldn’t want that right next to my house, and that’s the reason why I feel the way I do. I mean, it’s just as plain and simple as that.

Commissioner Tornatta: I think you’re building consensus. If you can bring the neighbors along, not your sister, in this case, but, if you can bring the neighbors along, I think that’s the most important. That’s what I’m going to look for.

Bill Engelbrecht: Well, I should have brought the one neighbor that lives next to Mr. Hart. He’s really in favor of it, okay? He’s all excited about it. So, not everybody out there is against it.

Commissioner Tornatta: Right.

Bill Engelbrecht: If I had known that all this was going to happen tonight, I would have brought my army with me.

Commissioner Tornatta: Right.

Bill Engelbrecht: But, you know–

President Korb: Well, I think those are your marching orders is to next time bring your army with you.

Bill Engelbrecht: Yeah, I guess so.

President Korb: And, I will say, as we’re each weighing in with our personal opinions, I have zero use for family involvement here. Sorry, it’s just my past, and this is a business deal. So, the opposition is welcome to come or wherever, but that personally falls on my deaf ears. I think that if you’re able to build consensus with the neighbors, and if you come back to us and have made, at least in my opinion, have made the effort to speak with the Donner’s, and something is acceptable to them, or is not acceptable to them, that’s going to weigh on what decision, I mean, how I vote. Obviously, I’m one of three, but I just feel very strongly that given our past record, I mean, take the emotions out of it, it’s no different than any other decision we’ve made in the past. I, obviously, am not speaking for the other two Commissioners. So, we have a motion on the floor to table this–

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: The only–

Commissioner Nix: Until the 17^th of June.

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Thank you, Ted.

Bill Engelbrecht: Do we need to come back here on the 17^th?

Commissioner Tornatta: The 17^th of June.

Bill Engelbrecht: Will they notify us?

Commissioner Nix: We need to make sure that that is on the agenda for that day.

Commissioner Tornatta: Yes, yes.

Commissioner Nix: No, but I’m saying it will be put on the agenda.

Commissioner Tornatta: She is putting it on the agenda.

Madelyn Grayson: That is actually a rezoning night. Should it fall on the Commission meeting, or the Rezoning agenda?

Commissioner Tornatta: Rezoning.

Janet Greenwell: (Inaudible).

Commissioner Tornatta: Which would be the 17^th. That was as in the form of my motion.

Commissioner Nix: I will second that.

President Korb: There’s been a motion made and seconded. Discussion? To bring this back by the 17^th of June.

Bill Engelbrecht: And we will be notified of the time?

President Korb: It will be about the same time, about 5:45.

Bill Engelbrecht: Okay.

Commissioner Nix: Are we going to vote on that?

President Korb: Yeah, absolutely we’re going to vote on it. Just having discussion here.

Commissioner Nix: Okay, thank you.

President Korb: All those in favor say aye.

All Commissioners: Aye.

President Korb: Opposed same sign. Okay, so we’ll see you all back on the 17^th.

David Donner: (Inaudible).

President Korb: Sure.

David Donner: I didn’t quite understand what you were talking about on the we table it to the 17^th, but if me and him can’t come into agreement, then you okay it anyway?

Commissioner Tornatta: No, no, and that’s a 30 day, so, or a 90 day, which would put it to July 10^th, okay?

President Korb: But, I think we’re going to vote yes or no before the July 10^th deadline.

Commissioner Tornatta: On the 17^th, that’s why we’re bringing it back quite a bit early of that date to be able to give a judgement at that point. Then, the same remonstrators can come, if they feel like they haven’t been handled properly, or taken care of, they can come back at that time. Will there be anything sent out? Or will they have to, I don’t think there will be.

David Donner: No, well, I mean–

Commissioner Tornatta: So, I mean, just mark this date in your calendar on June 17^th.

David Donner: June 17^th.

Commissioner Tornatta: It will be after our Commissioners meeting. I’m sorry.

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: The one thing that could change that, the petitioners would have the option to decide that they want to put something additional into their use and development commitment, and if they want to, they need to then start over with the Plan Commission, and they would do that officially, in which case it would not happen on June the 17^th, and the entire proceeding would start over again with the Plan Commission. Then it would come back to us after the Plan Commission acts.

David Donner: Okay.

Commissioner Tornatta: Sorry.

David Donner: That’s good enough.

Commissioner Tornatta: Right, and if it would start over, you would be notified.

Bill Engelbrecht: By starting over meaning that if we decided to move the property or something like that?

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: No, you can amend your petition, if you have other property that you want to rezone. Or, you can still go with the same property, but in trying to develop some consensus with the neighbors you could put in your use and development commitment that you’re going to build a fence of a certain kind, that you’re going to plant pine trees or whatever trying to develop the best possible buffer that you can. That may not satisfy the remonstrators, but that is an option that you have.

Bill Engelbrecht: The letter that Joey gave them tonight is no good? I mean, that doesn’t work?

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: No, it’s a nice gentleman’s agreement, but the fact of the matter is it’s not worth the paper it’s written on in so far as the neighbor’s trying to enforce that.

Bill Engelbrecht: Okay.

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: If the zoning were approved and you later decide you don’t want to do what you had written out, there’s nothing legal to require you to do that.

Bill Engelbrecht: So, you’re saying all we need to do is add this on to the Planning Commission’s use and development and it will be a part of the record?

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: You would go talk to the Plan Commission and they’ll explain to you how you would do that. Mr. Morley knows that.

Bill Engelbrecht: Okay.

Commissioner Nix: Are we ready to vote?

Commissioner Tornatta: Motion to adjourn.

President Korb: We’ve already voted.

Commissioner Nix: Oh, we, okay.

President Korb: Yeah. Motion to--

Commissioner Nix: Second.

President Korb: All those in favor say aye.

All Commissioners: Aye.

President Korb: Meeting adjourned.

(The meeting was adjourned at 6:50 p.m.)

Those in Attendance:

Jeff Korb                                   Bill Nix                                      Troy Tornatta

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.          Janet Greenwell                       Madelyn Grayson

Jim Morley, Jr.                          Ryan Hart                                 Christina Donner

David Donner                           Connie Engelbrecht                  Bill Engelbrecht

Joe Engelbrecht                       Others Unidentified                   Members of Media

VANDERBURGH COUNTY

BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS

Jeff Korb, President

Bill Nix, Vice President

Troy Tornatta, Member

(Recorded and transcribed by Madelyn Grayson.)