VANDERBURGH COUNTY

DRAINAGE BOARD

SEPTEMBER 16, 2008

The Vanderburgh County Drainage Board met in session this 16^th day of September, 2008 at 5:55 p.m. in room 301 of the Civic Center Complex with President Troy Tornatta presiding.

President Tornatta: Good afternoon, everybody, we’re going to start the Vanderburgh County Drainage Board meeting, Tuesday, September 16, 2008 at 5:55. Mr. Jeffers?

Bill Jeffers: Good afternoon.

President Tornatta: We’re going to approve the minutes first, though.

Commissioner Nix: I make a motion that we approve the minutes of the previous meeting. Would there be a second for that?

Commissioner Korb: I’m sorry. Second.

President Tornatta: So ordered.

Commissioner Korb: Having a senior moment. Do I need to do something else now?

Commissioner Nix: No, he’s running the meeting.

Commissioner Korb: Okay.

President Tornatta: We’re ready.

Bill Jeffers: Okay, I’m questioning the use of that senior moment comment. How do you feel about that, Ted?

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: I just give legal advice.

Bill Jeffers: Well, I’m a member of AARP and get a senior discount at the smorgasbord.

Commissioner Nix: After your senior moment.

Bill Jeffers: So, I’m going to take you to task for that someday, Jeff.

Commissioner Korb: Alright.

Bill Jeffers: The first item of business is a follow up report on the Roger Huff petition. You’ll remember that Roger Huff petitioned to ask the Drainage Board to remove obstructions, order the removal of obstructions on Jason Schmitt’s property, earth fill and other items to cause better drainage of Mr. Huff’s property. Today is the date set for a follow up report from the County Surveyor. Two weeks ago I viewed the Jason Schmitt property and found that Mr. Schmitt had graded an earthen swale through his garden and chicken coop area, down to where it joins with the natural surface watercourse on the east side of his shed, lean to shed. That swale is approximately six feet wide at the bottom, ten feet wide at the top, a foot or so deep, and capable of carrying a significant amount of storm water runoff away and downhill. It’s got a one and a half foot drop between the Huff property line on the north, or excuse me, on the south, and where it passes through the chicken coop and joins with the other watercourse. Behind the shed there’s approximately a foot and a half drop. I think that removes the obstruction to the watercourse that existed, and facilitates the sufficient runoff of water from the Huff property, thereby removing the alleged, and, actually, it wasn’t just alleged, it was verified by my previous investigation. It removes the obstruction. I noticed Mr. Huff is in the audience. Jason Schmitt is attending to farm duties, but his fiancé is here, should there be a request from the board for information. If anyone steps forward I would please ask them to stick to the obstruction and its removal, and that all other issues be handled in their appropriate venue.

Commissioner Korb: Mr. Jeffers, did you, you have inspected it, is that correct?

Bill Jeffers: Yes, sir.

Commissioner Korb: And your findings were, were they satisfactory to you?

Bill Jeffers: That the obstruction has been removed--

Commissioner Korb: Yes.

Bill Jeffers: –from the watercourse.

Commissioner Korb: Okay.

Bill Jeffers: And the watercourse has been restored.

Commissioner Korb: And that’s going through the chicken coop, is that correct?

Bill Jeffers: Yes, sir.

Commissioner Korb: Okay, and we decided at our last, the last time we had this discussion, that was really all we had jurisdiction over, is that correct?

Bill Jeffers: It’s my feeling that that’s the only watercourse that drained the Huff property.

Commissioner Korb: Okay.

Bill Jeffers: The pipe drains property to the west of the lane, which is not Mr. Huff’s property. So, my conclusion is that the obstruction has been removed and it will affect better drainage of Mr. Huff’s property.

Commissioner Korb: Okay.

President Tornatta: Alright, but Mr. Huff’s here, so we’ll allow him to speak.

Bill Jeffers: If he would like to do so.

President Tornatta: That would be great. Thank you. Mr. Huff, before you say your name and who you’re with, just keep in mind we do want to stay right to the subject, but give you ample time to go over your issue.

Roger Huff: I’m Roger Huff, and, as you know, this is my wife, Christi. It was our understanding at the last meeting that Mr. Jeffers was going to come out and stake grade the area, which would ensure that the water would, in fact, travel downhill. As far as I know that hasn’t happened. I certainly never saw any stakes or anything of that nature. Jason Schmitt did create a trench through his chicken coop, however, it’s quite easy to see from standing in the driveway that the grade clearly goes uphill. A child could determine that. If there were a torrent of water coming down the hill, I think it would begin to pass over that, but a torrent of water doesn’t come down the hill, rain waters travel down the hill and they settle. So, I do not think that this is going to cure the problem, by any means. I don’t believe it will even begin to. I just spent $1,024 repairing the damage that Jason Schmitt has done to my land, and I would like to feel that this situation is going to be rectified so that I don’t have to spend that money again. It was my understanding that this was going to be stake graded. So, I mean, what we have here was impromptu excavation in the middle of the night on Jason Schmitt’s part inside of his chicken coop. You know, Mr. Jeffers may have, in fact, come out and noticed that Schmitt did some excavation–

President Tornatta: Uh-huh.

Roger Huff: –but it certainly was never stake graded. I am a landscaper, and I can tell you this, in order to get water to travel, as it should, stake grading, laser grading, something of that, you know, it needs to occur. It didn’t occur.

President Tornatta: Do you have some pictures you want us to see?

Christi Huff: Yes. So, essentially, what he is saying is the grade comes right back to where the water was originally collecting. I wish I would have had an opportunity to get a Power Point for everyone to see, but I was unable to do so.

President Tornatta: Right. That’s fine.

Christi Huff: What I have here are pictures previously of the drainage ditch that we tried to address earlier. This was not brought to the attention for some reason, this is the drainage ditch, okay, this is their property, this is going up to our house. This was the drainage ditch that has been there since the basic creation of the property. It’s a natural drainage ditch. Okay, right before, this is where the chicken coop now is and their garden area. This was the drainage ditch that was there previous to them moving in. This was approximately two years ago, a year and a half. Here’s another picture of the drainage ditch. You can see the bridge going over. This is just, to give you a better idea of the grade of the property, you know, water comes down this way, comes down that way, and there’s the drainage ditch to also catch that. Okay, and this is a prime example of, sorry, heavy rains collecting, and the water is obviously traveling down to this drainage ditch. Okay, if it goes beyond, now, this area right here is where the chicken coop and garden is now. This is just another example of the grade and how the water travels. This is a recent picture of that area. Okay, so, the trench goes from about here down to, you know, where the blockage was before with the rip rap and so forth. So, you can see that there’s debris, I mean, not debris necessarily, but vegetation and so forth that’s going to affect, you know, how easily the water is going to travel through. This is the current chicken coop. This is another example of the grade of the hill on their property, you know, the chicken coop starts up here goes downhill. You see here where the ditch has been filled in. This, let me find you a clearer picture. Oh, I don’t have it. Can you grab the other pictures over there, please? Okay, so the drainage ditch that was now there, is not there anymore. So, the trench starts here, about, you can see where the damage was before on the grass. The trench starts here and goes uphill, barely, not a high grade, but still uphill, so whenever it rains it’s going to go right back to where it was. So, this is where, an example of the drainage ditch no longer existing, okay.

Commissioner Nix: Where was the obstruction?

Christi Huff: The obstruction was here, originally. Also, the larger drainage ditch, the natural one that was formed on its own over the years–

Roger Huff: Okay, can I interject something here? It was also my understanding, at the last meeting, that Jason Schmitt was going to open this ditch up again, and that Mr. Jeffers was going to come out and inspect it to ensure that an adequate i.d. pipe had been in place. After the last meeting I had a conversation with Mr. Jeffers, and he told me that, yes, that had been done. Well, standing on my property I can clearly see that about 25 to 30 foot of that ditch was opened up, and that some sort of pipe, which I would consider at least approaching an adequate i.d. pipe was in place there, but that entire ditch certainly was never opened up. Furthermore, I don’t believe that it was ever inspected while it was open to ensure that that pipe goes all the way through. I think what we have there is a wooden leg in the ground to make it look like something’s been done. That’s my opinion, and I think it’s really safe to say.

Christi Huff: And as the meeting ended last, our last meeting here, Mr. Jeffers did indicate that he did wish for the natural water drainage to be able to run its natural course. So, that is why we are addressing the larger drainage ditch also, so that the rest of the water has a place to go. You know, he can make the trench through the chicken coop, but that does not affect all of the water that’s collecting from all of the other, you know, sides of the property. I don’t know if you remember, but we are trying to sell our home. We’re obviously not going to be able to sell it if there are flooding problems, so that the new owner can come back and, you know, sue us later. But, I do know that we went through, about a year and a half ago, a major ordeal with, concerning the soil quality in that area, requiring us to have two and a half acres of property in that particular area, a two and half acre ordinance, and this completely affects it adversely by blocking the drainage, filling in the drainage ditches, and, you know, if we have to have that two and half acre ordinance so that adequate soil, or so that adequate area can absorb the soil, I don’t see, this is just a backwards move.

President Tornatta: Okay. Let me stop you there. Appreciate you coming out. Let’s hear from Mr. Jeffers, and then we’ll move on.

Madelyn Grayson: Mr. Huff, may we keep these pictures for the record?

President Tornatta: Do you need these?

Roger Huff: You may keep them, but I would like to have them back, because I’m going to court on Thursday with Jason Schmitt, and I will need the pictures (Inaudible).

Madelyn Grayson: Can I make copies of them real quick then, before–

Roger Huff: Certainly.

Madelyn Grayson: Okay.

President Tornatta: Mr. Jeffers?

Bill Jeffers: Okay, I went out with my survey crew to place grade stakes for Mr. Schmitt to utilize in the grading of the swale, and he had already graded the swale. So, that’s why no grade stakes were placed, because he had already completed the job. We took our level transit, our level rod and three men, myself included, and we shot grade from Mr. Huff’s property line, down through the garden, down, I’m using the word down through the chicken coop, and there’s a one and one half foot fall, in elevation, from the property line to the last point we shot below the chicken coop. As I said earlier, it does not run uphill, unless our level is busted. If a landscaper, or anyone else, would like to go out and check my grade, they are welcome to do so. I am not a child, and I can determine grade. After the meeting, our last meeting, and within days after our last meeting, and prior to Jason Schmitt making the final improvement, which I have described, we had a two inch rainfall at the site, and, yes, there was a trench through the garden, the swale was not there, and there was not one drop of rain water standing on Mr. Huff’s property at 8:30 in the morning, within four hours after that rainfall event. With regard to the natural drainage ditch that runs through the property, or did run through the property, it ran under the driveway, which is not Mr. Huff’s property, it is an easement he enjoys to enter and leave his property. The pipe under the driveway appears to be an 18 inch pipe. Mr. Schmitt told me that the pipe from that point forward to his shed that he put in the ground is an 18 inch pipe. He then connected to about a six inch diameter white, plastic pipe. I asked him to remove that. He did so. The pipe that I see coming out of the ground now, down at the creek is an 18 inch black, plastic pipe, just like the one that goes under the driveway. It’s of the same diameter, or appears to be. If someone else would like to go measure it, and they know how to use a measuring tape, be my guest. There are scraps of that pipe laying on top of the ground that were not used, and they too are 18 inch diameter pipes. So, I’m assuming that the 18 inch diameter pipe runs from the driveway, and that pipe under that driveway has been there for years, when the Huff’s owned all of the property, that’s the diameter pipe that was under that driveway. That so called natural drain or larger drainage ditch that’s been shown to you in the pictures, that’s now covered and piped, and drains an area of land, which when I look at the plat does not belong to Mr. Huff, the petitioner. Our statute that we’re operating under charges us to remove obstructions to cause the better drainage of the petitioner’s property. What I would say to you in closing, I’m not even going to address the two and half acre ordinance, that’s a sanitary sewer ordinance. That’s just a county-wide ordinance, you’ve got to have two and a half acres to be on a private sanitary system. If you’re not hooked up to a city sewer system, two and a half acres is the minimum. It doesn’t apply here. I mean, it does apply, they have to be on two and a half acres, but it doesn’t apply to anything to do with drainage. In closing I would simply say that if there is a flooding problem, or if you feel that there is a potential for a flooding problem, or if Mr. Huff wishes to press the issue that there’s a potential for a flooding problem, that you simply leave this issue on the table until we have a rainy season and we shall see.

President Tornatta: I think that’s a great motion.

Commissioner Nix: (Inaudible).

President Tornatta: We do.

Commissioner Nix: So moved.

Commissioner Korb: Second.

President Tornatta: So ordered.

Bill Jeffers: I’m going to skip the report on the Paul Esche petition, in the interest of time, except to tell you that, or remind you that October 15^th is the drop dead date for Ms. Linda Phillips to affect her repairs. I’ve been on the telephone with her contractor and Ms. Phillips, and it doesn’t appear as if that’s going to happen as we wished. So, October 7^th, I’ll come back to you either with a recommendation to hire your own contractor, but I would like your permission to talk to the attorney about what our options are. I did inform Mrs. Phillips simply that if she wasn’t satisfied with the decision of the board, she can take it to Circuit or Superior Court, as the statute allows.

Commissioner Korb: I put that in the form of a motion, permitting Mr. Jeffers to work with County Attorneys.

Commissioner Nix: Second.

President Tornatta: So ordered.

Bill Jeffers: Now on to the matter for this evening, the hearing of the Evelyn F. Utley petition. There is a Power Point associated with this. I’ll read the Surveyor’s report, which I sent you via e-mail attached. In her petition Evelyn Utley alleges obstructions of a natural surface watercourse and drains causing inferior drainage of her property at 6017 Oak Hill Road, Evansville, Indiana. On the old, this is a 1968 Plano metric map of the county, and I’ve inscribed on top the watercourse that runs down through the properties. The first house you see on the left of the second arrow belongs to the Schneider’s , the next house on the left is Mrs. Utley’s, and the house on the right is the remonstrator, the respondents house, the Smith’s. You can see clearly that the watercourse ran between the two houses. The Smith’s, as the respondents, Utley, as the petitioner, and the watercourse favored the Utley side of the line. Then it crosses Cresthaven Drive and runs through the west side of what is now, pardon me, I’m sorry, it passes on the west side of the Volz’s property, until it comes to the roadside ditch for Oak Hill Road. Ms. Utley alleges that the obstructions to the drain, and to the natural surface watercourse exists on the property of Mr. and Mrs. Charles Smith, 3216 Cresthaven Court, Evansville, Indiana. Although the Utley petition itself does not contain an exact description of the alleged obstructions, Ms. Utley attaches documents to her petition that give the opinion of Joe Buchanan, Hydromax, Incorporated, a sewer and drain cleaning service, that the drainage pipe on Ms. Utley’s property is in severe need of repair, excuse me, “The drainage pipe on Ms. Utley’s property is in severe need of repair.”, due to Buchanan’s observation that “there are several sink holes located over the drainage pipe”, indicating, “the pipe has joints that are offset or separated”. Does everyone have a copy of this report, or would like one? Anyone need one?

President Korb: I don’t have one, but I don’t need one.

Bill Jeffers: Okay. It should be noted that when the County Surveyor spoke with Mr. Buchanan, he said then he could not absolutely confirm his suspicions regarding the condition of the pipe without first running a camera or probe through the pipe, and that Ms. Utley had not authorized such an expense. I included that sentence because an obstruction can include, by statute, a condition that impedes, or significantly impedes the flow of water through a drain. In his document attached to the petition, Mr. Buchanan also offers his opinion that a wooden deck, landscaping on the Smith’s property, “contribute to some of Ms. Utley’s flooding problems”, but does not say specifically how or whether such material and objects are obstructions to the natural surface watercourse or the pipe drain. Okay, I’m asking again, please be aware that this hearing is enabled by IC 36-9-27.4, a statute providing for the verification of alleged obstructions, the removal of which will cause better drainage of the petitioner’s property. It’s my opinion that even where there are known conditions that contribute to poor drainage, if those conditions are other than obstructions to a drain, or other than obstructions to a natural surface watercourse, as clearly defined by the statute, that such conditions are not relevant to the hearing, to the extent that the Board should hear or act upon them, and a remedy for such inapplicable conditions must be sought in some other court or venue. In response to the petition, the County Surveyor and staff have visited the site of the alleged obstructions on several occasions, investigated the allegations and submit the following observations with regard to the alleged obstructions of the drain and natural surface watercourse at this time. Here is the aerial photograph showing Ms. Utley’s property, outlined in blue on the left, the Smith’s property, outlined in blue on the right. The home below the word Cresthaven is the Volz’s home. I must take the watercourse first, then we have a series of pictures showing the watercourse. I’m saying it no longer exists as it did prior to the construction of Ms. Utley’s home. That is to say old county maps that I’ve shown you show the natural surface watercourse, or the valley, running downhill, southwestwardly and through the property owned by Gene Schneider immediately north of Ms. Utley’s home. This one is from 1990, and you can already see that the watercourse is flattening out. It doesn’t have those distinct, narrow lines. So, these are made from aerial photographs, and what that signifies, basically, is that the person making the map cannot see the detail of the natural surface watercourse any longer, due to alterations of the land, between the first map and this one. Okay, we can go to the photographs now. Wait, this is Andy Easley’s survey, fairly recent survey of Ms. Utley’s property. I don’t know the exact date, but the corners are still capped and marked with orange ribbon, etcetera, so I would say it’s relatively recently. It shows a pipe up at the northeast corner of Ms. Utley’s property, and then that runs down to a drain that says “area drain” down here about three quarters of the way down. A little bit higher. Right there. Down a little. Right there, area drain, and then according to some of the neighbors, they believe that the pipe runs diagonally across the corner of her property and across the Volz’s until that pipe arrives down at Oak Hill Road. I’m thinking that pipe replaces the natural surface watercourse, but I’ll get into that in a moment. The watercourse enters Ms. Utley’s yard and the Smith’s yard approximately at the inlet of that pipe. The pipe is located on the Smith’s northwest corner, as I’ve said. From there, the natural surface watercourse then runs basically along the joint property line between the Smith’s and the Utley’s, but favors the Utley’s side of the line. The natural watercourse runs southwestwardly, rather than due south, more and more as it eventually crosses the Utley property and nears Cresthaven Court. By the time it gets to Cresthaven it runs entirely on the Utley property. Now, as to the obstructions of the natural surface watercourse, as defined by statute. One must identify objects, materials and conditions that lie within or near the natural surface watercourse and prevent or significantly impede the flow of water through the watercourse. With regard to Ms. Utley’s petition the following structures, materials, objects and conditions are found within or in close proximity to the original natural surface watercourse, and may qualify as obstructions, because, in fact, they do or will prevent or significantly impede runoff through the watercourse. First, Ms. Utley’s outbuilding at the northwest corner of her property, I think you can see that on the aerial photograph. Ms. Utley’s wooden fence, no, it would be on the aerial photograph. There’s a shed right there where the palm of the hand is. There’s a wooden fence all along the east property line, then there’s some fill associated with the Smith’s new garage that has a white shed roof on the front and a shingle roof on the back part of it. There’s some fill associated with them having built that garage that was disposed on site. There’s a gravel driveway they built to the garage, there may be some fill associated with that that has encroached into the waterway. Some fill associated with installation of the pipe itself, that’s between the two, the garage and the shed back there. There’s some fill that covers the pipe, I mean, you have to, once you put a pipe in you’ve got to cover it. Some landscaping of the Smith’s along the new driveway and the Utley’s fence. The Utley’s have a concrete slab here on the end on Cresthaven, but you can show a picture of the slab if you like. That’s the location of it, plan view. We’ll see some pictures of that slab, it was poured to park their Air Stream trailer some years ago. It blocks the watercourse. Trees planted years ago by the Utley’s, now consisting of about three large, oh, I’m going to say 24 inch diameter Poplar trees over top of the pipe drain. Let’s scroll down and look at some trees. Picture number six. Picture number seven. There’s a tree in the background. Picture number eight. There’s a tree and some landscaping and the fence. All that should be an open watercourse, if it was left natural. We can look at the other side of the fence, there’s Ms. Utley’s backyard, you can see landscaping and fence in the watercourse, concrete sidewalk. Oh, pick another picture, now we’re looking out to the south, the watercourse is now over on her property at this point, and there’s landscaping on the right and the left that has encroached into the watercourse. Removal of all these objects and material from within or near the watercourse surely would improve drainage of Ms. Utley’s property, but it’s unlikely that she truly desires removal of many of the items, particularly the ones she’s placed or enjoys. On the other side of the coin, it would seem unfair to single out for removal only those materials I’ve shown you on the Smith side of the line, when objects and materials on the Utley side of the line may equally and in some cases more dramatically impact the natural surface watercourse. If all the objects and materials that prevent or significantly impede the flow of runoff are left to remain in their present location, then effective drainage of Ms. Utley’s yard and her home solely depend upon the pipe drain and the inlets to the pipe. So, let’s look at those. That’s on down around, there’s an inlet, number 17. There’s an inlet to the pipe that drains Ms. Utley’s side yard. Her side yard is totally dependent upon that. Now we’re looking at it from the Smith’s side of the yard. See the wire grate? That’s about a 24 inch diameter, maybe an 18 inch diameter opening. That’s a grate, a homemade grate that used to be on top of that opening. Someone took a blow torch and blew a few dime sized holes in it. I asked them to remove that, you might get more water to go down. The Smith’s were kind enough to remove that for Ms. Utley. Let’s look at the pipe in the back there.

Commissioner Nix: That’s a restrictor plate, Mr. Jeffers.

Bill Jeffers: It’s a restrictor plate.

Commissioner Korb: That’s what we call it in NASCAR.

Bill Jeffers: I call it an obstruction. GW would say I call that an obstruction. Number 19, this is a drop box right there by Mr. Schneider’s property line where the watercourse first enters the Smith’s property, next to, that’s a nice looking drop box, by the way. I would like to be able to make one like that myself. Somebody did some handy work there. Number 20 is an 18 inch diameter concrete tile, keep that in mind, 18 inch diameter concrete tile. Now, this pipe that appears to be laid at about a two percent grade along the Smith’s west property line gets down to that inlet we also looked at, and then from that inlet we believe it runs diagonally across Utley’s property, across Cresthaven, across Sondra or Sandra and Larry Volz front yard out to Oak Hill Road. The entire run of pipe was installed by private parties, has been privately maintained since its installation, privately owned, except for that part that may cross, that crosses Cresthaven, which may or may not be a county road. I don’t know, because some surveys show it is, some surveys show it isn’t. There are no records known to the County Surveyor or Highway Department as to the design of that pipe, but using its apparent size and grade, I believe it’s capable to convey flow up to 15 cubic feet per second. The watershed area above the pipe is six acres, large residential lots with grassy lawns, for the most part. They are on a three percent gentle land slope, 500 feet long, so such a watershed might be expected to contribute about ten cubic feet during a, cubic feet per second, during a 25 year storm, and about 13 cubic feet per second during a 100 year storm, indicating that an 18 inch pipe, which is capable on that grade, and I didn’t calculate the head, there’s at least an eight inch head above that pipe, but even without the head, it’s carrying up to 15 cubic feet per second, or in excess of the 100 year storm. I have eyewitness testimony from at least one of the party’s that the rush of water that comes down that hill has traditionally been carried by this pipe with no problem.

Commissioner Korb: Mr. Jeffers, if I may?

Bill Jeffers: Yes, sir.

Commissioner Korb: Did you find some obstructions that was, and what would be your suggested remedies for those? Or, are you getting to that?

Bill Jeffers: I’m getting to that, sir.

Commissioner Korb: Okay, I’m just trying to keep Ted out of trouble.

Commissioner Nix: Thank you, Mr. Jeffers.

Bill Jeffers: You’re welcome, Mr. Nix. Okay, verification of the obstruction, or a collapsed pipe, or separated pipe joints, let’s look at the pipe joints that have been uncovered.

Commissioner Nix: Bill, just in layman’s terms though right now, basically what they’ve done is they’ve taken a natural flow and they’ve tried to divert it to this inlet and take it underground?

Bill Jeffers: Well, it’s not even diverted. The inlet is right in the natural flow. It picks up the natural flow.

Commissioner Nix: It’s tried to divert, but it’s not necessarily taken place.

Bill Jeffers: It’s tried to carry it underground rather than overground.

Commissioner Nix: But, there’s not enough diversion to get it to this structure, so it–

Bill Jeffers: It all arrives at that structure. Yes, sir.

Commissioner Nix: Okay.

Bill Jeffers: From uphill. From the Schneider’s property I would say nearly 100 percent of the flow that went through the watercourse arrives at that drop structure. The Smith’s have dug up the pipe because Utley, Ms. Utley thought that there were some separated tiles. There’s your pipe joints, pretty tight, pretty tight. There may be some other areas, it would require digging up the entire landscape on both sides of the line to find the rest of the joints. I did find a few minor sink holes on the Volz property, way out there by Oak Hill Road. I didn’t ask them to dig up their yard yet. Try to skip down here, because I know there are some people wanting to get out of here, here are the possible obstructions, you can read the rest of my report at your leisure; tree roots, particularly from the trees planted atop the pipe. Those trees were planted, it’s my understanding by the Utley’s. Roots could be growing into the pipe, but I can’t verify that. Rip rap that was placed at the inlet to the pipe, on the Smith’s property, which may have washed into the pipe during heavy storms. Again, I cannot verify that. I looked through the pipe, I could not see any. Debris that may have washed into the pipe, such as limbs, hay, straw, whatever, from upstream properties. Again, without running a camera down the pipe, as was offered by Hydromax, I am unable to confirm or deny an obstruction to the pipe. So, until someone orders a probe or a camera run through the pipe, the only suggestion that I can offer to help Ms. Utley at this time affect better drainage of her yard and her home is to remove the decorative concrete blocks and brick bats around the inlet. Next picture, that’s holding back four inches of water right there, remove the iron plate, which the Smith’s already have done for her, maintain that heavy wire grate covering the inlet free of leaves that might fall from those large trees, and accomplish some minor regrading in her side yard to cause a more positive drainage away from her home and towards that inlet. If you look at some of the side yard pictures you can see she has tried to do some of that regrading, I think it could be done a little more effectively. I acknowledge that this report doesn’t address all of her complaint issues, but, again, until someone runs a camera down there, I went to the City Engineer’s to borrow a camera, theirs is disabled and they don’t have the funds to fix it. The County Engineer doesn’t have a camera, and I don’t have a 500 foot sewer tape to run down through there. I’ll leave the rest for you guys to read at your leisure. That’s my report at this time.

President Tornatta: Would, so do we have the petitioner here?

Bill Jeffers: The petitioner is here with her representative, and the respondent is here with some of her representatives.

President Tornatta: Okay. Let’s start with the petitioner please.

Kathryn Kornblum: Good evening. Kathryn Kornblum, and I’m going to utilize some of the Power Point, if possible. I would like to, as with clay tiles, these were put in 40 years ago. They expand, they contract, tree roots get in, we don’t know what the problem is. Yes, it needs to be cameraed. It’s on Mr. Smith’s property. Mrs. Utley doesn’t have the ability to trespass on to Mr. Smith’s property and get that taken care of. We’ve asked the Smith’s to do that, they declined. Things were fine until ‘92, when the Smtih’s moved in. They started making changes to the landscape and the natural waterflow. Some of those changes that they made in ‘92 caused themselves problems. They retained water. Because of that, they started putting in piping and everything, going around. I would like to pass out a few photographs. This is one of the pipes. It’s supposed to go into this drain opening. As you can see there, they’ve covered the drain opening with rock. So, instead of going into the drain opening, it’s now going down and ending up in Mrs. Utley’s yard. Here’s a picture of the washout. You can see the watercourse as it goes down, around where it should be going into here, all the water should be going into this thing, it is not. As Mr. Jeffers points out, with that drain opening, we should be able to accommodate the water. It cannot, because of various sundry things. There was a gravel driveway and a garage put in in ‘95. That gravel now washes down the road and covers Cresthaven. There was, in 2004, a carport and deck and flower beds put in. I have color pictures where you can see here, the water is (Inaudible. Talking away from microphone.) In addition, Mr. Schneider’s property (Inaudible) he is contributing to it (Inaudible). You have two (Inaudible). We see several issues here. One, we need to have it scoped with a camera to see where the problem is. It does connect all the way down and goes down, across Cresthaven and across the neighbors property and ties into Oak Hill. That needs a camera on it. So, we need to have the Smith’s, because it’s on their property, whatever needs to be done to have that camera done. Hydromax can do it. They have the ability to do it. Mrs. Utley is willing to contribute to the cost, it’s just a matter that it’s on the Smith property. She doesn’t have a right to go on the Smith property. The rocks that are on top of the drain opening that is supposed to take this water down underground and over to Oak Hill, they need to be removed. The watercourse, which is now changed through all this landscaping and everything, needs to be analyzed so that that water does go into that drain opening. Right now it isn’t. It’s diverted every which way and ends up on Mrs. Utley’s property, which is the low end. Cresthaven goes down to her, and Lakeridge which is on the back side of Mr. Schneider’s property comes down. Then we have Mr. Schneider’s drainage now coming because of his landscaping and lack of grass onto Mrs. Utley’s property. In other words, she’s getting every, the natural watercourse that existed when her home was built and the drain was put in to accommodate that natural watercourse is no longer, as Mr. Jeffers pointed out, in existence as it was, due to changes on the Smith property and the Schneider property. I don’t know about the Utley property, as far as the concrete pad that you see in the one corner, the water goes across that, that’s not where it’s accumulating. It’s leaving her property across it. So, it’s not contributing to it.

Commissioner Korb: Help me, Ms. Kornblum, if you can, where are you going with this? What are you seeking?

Kathryn Kornblum: What we’re seeking is that a professional come out there, work with Mr. Jeffers, and get the rock removed, get what needs to be done to put the water back into the drain. We also want that the drain be scoped to make sure that if there’s tree roots or whatever that may be blocking it.

Commissioner Korb: Uh-huh. So, at this point in time you’re not looking for any financial remediation?

Kathryn Kornblum: Well, not until we know what the problem is?

Commissioner Korb: Okay.

Kathryn Kornblum: The exact problem.

Commissioner Korb: But then once we find out what the, once the problem is found out, what are you going to be seeking?

Kathryn Kornblum: Then we’re seeking, depending upon what they find out. If they find out that the deck needs to be removed, then we’re seeking to have that removed.

Commissioner Korb: Okay.

Kathryn Kornblum: If the landscaping tiles and–

Commissioner Korb: You just want it fixed so it drains?

Kathryn Kornblum: We want it fixed.

Commissioner Korb: Okay, but you’re not getting ready to pop them for a financial settlement, I’m assuming? You just want the thing fixed?

Kathryn Kornblum: We just want it fixed at this point.

Commissioner Korb: Okay.

Kathryn Kornblum: The, her house, her, she’s got separation, the driveway is now separated from her garage, you know–

Commissioner Korb: Sure.

Kathryn Kornblum: –massive damage.

Commissioner Korb: Okay, great.

President Tornatta: We’re going to hold it right there, and talk to the–

Commissioner Korb: I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to cut you off. I just wanted to cut to the chase.

Kathryn Kornblum: I wanted to also.

Commissioner Korb: Thanks.

Commissioner Nix: Just one question for Mr. Jeffers, so I’m clear before we go on, does that structure split the property line? Is it staggered? Is it right, I noticed the fence, it looks there’s a fence that does.

Kathryn Kornblum: I have the (Inaudible).

Bill Jeffers: As near as I can tell, the structure starts on the Smith property, at their northwest corner, runs down to the inlet that we showed you that straddles the fence line. Ms. Utley’s fence is slightly to the west of her property line. Let’s look at the pipe. I mean, the inlet.

Commissioner Nix: Just a question. Does it, or does it not?

Bill Jeffers: I can’t answer that simply.

Commissioner Nix: Okay.

Bill Jeffers: No, number 17. As you can see, that fence straddles that inlet. If the fence is on Ms. Utley’s property, then part of the pipe’s on Ms. Utley’s property. You will hear testimony from one of the respondents, I believe, that they think that the pipe at this point right here takes a 45 degree turn and goes through Mrs. Utley’s property for a couple hundred feet. So, let’s say we scoped it from where it begins down to this point, yes, the majority of that would be on the Smith property.

Commissioner Nix: Do we know who put that pipe in?

Bill Jeffers: I’ll let them tell you that.

Commissioner Nix: Okay. The structure, I mean, the structure and the pipe.

President Tornatta: Are the Smith’s here?

Gail Smith: Yes.

President Tornatta: Come on up, please.

Gail Smith: Good evening. I’m Gail Smith. We bought that house in ‘92. Shortly there after we had a heavy rain. We ended up having, oh, a good foot of water in our garage. We too had a water problem. It was obvious, with all the water coming down, we were going to have to do something. So, we had an excavating crew come in and dig out everything. After we did that, well, guess what? It rained again. We had four inches of rain, right there at our house. So, we put in landscaping timbers so that not to completely hold the water back, because you know you can’t hold water back, you have to slow it down. We put rock in, we spent probably close to $40,000 in all to try to correct our water problems. Whenever we put in the garage and everything, we also used a scope to make sure we did not do any kind of damage to the Utley’s. At that time, the Utley’s thought that that big drain that they say all the rocks are on, well, they’re all off. That opening, that’s what she wants taken off, they’re all off. She thought that was her drain. She thought that where the trees were planted was her property. So, not long after we put that garage in, we had a terrible storm, and one of the trees between the garage and her existing shed fell over on our new garage. We didn’t have power for three days. So, we had to have that tree taken out. So, at the time that we had that tree taken out, we offered to take out all the trees so that we wouldn’t have any more problems. They declined. That was their trees, they put them trees in and that’s what they wanted. So, we said, okay, that’s fine. Not a problem. So, everything we did, we tried to control the water as not to go on her. Anytime you slow water down, that’s what it does, you know, you try to eliminate that problem. Okay, so, my husband is pretty well an invalid now. I put the deck on so that he won’t have to worry about weed eating and getting down there where all that drain is. I put the landscape timbers in so as to do vegetables and what have you. Well, over the last few years, they started sinking in, but the walkway, and that’s where she got the idea that my pipe was busted and needed to be, was in serious need of repair. So, I dug the pipe up, and what it ended up being was where I had that tree removed, and it had rotted. So, that’s why everything looked like it was sinking in. As Mr. Jeffers said, the pipe is in good condition. Okay, I took out all the landscape timbers, I have done everything, like you said, I took the ground thing off. I have done everything to try to, you know, accommodate her. What she don’t seem to realize, and I have tried to tell her in the past, that when they installed the fence, the people that put her fence in supposedly cracked the pipe. And, also, George, her husband, before he died, he also made the statement that he thought that he was going to have to replace the pipe that goes into that pipe, because his sump pump kept backing up. Now, you know, if your sump pump backs up, and you’ve got a crack in this pipe, that’s going to cause a lot of water damage since ‘95 and this is 2008. How much water damage are you going to have in a situation like that? As far as the pipe being busted, I also have a witness, Mr. Schneider’s son, who was enlisted by Mr. Utley’s help to try to remedy the problem. The problem with the pipe.

President Tornatta: Okay, what would be the problem with both of you getting together on the cost to have it–

Gail Smith: I told her she could, they called me in January and asked me if they could go in and have it scoped out. Fine, not a problem. Will you pay for it? No, I won’t pay for it because most of it’s on her problem. She would not even listen to what the problem was. There’s a big hole in her pipe on her side and she won’t, you know–

President Tornatta: Okay.

Gail Smith: –that she put in whenever she put the fence in.

President Tornatta: Commissioners?

Commissioner Korb: Go ahead, I was just going to say, Mr. Jeffers, your opinion? I say this not sarcastically, I mean, you are one who normally has done your homework very well. What’s your assessment of this situation?

President Tornatta: Mrs, hold on.

Commissioner Nix: One question real quick, are you having any water problems (Inaudible)?

Gail Smith: No.

Commissioner Nix: You’re having none whatsoever?

Gail Smith: Uh-uh.

Commissioner Nix: You don’t have any flooding, nothing, no water back up?

Gail Smith: No. No.

Commissioner Nix: Okay. Thank you.

President Tornatta: Thank you, Mrs. Smith. Appreciate it.

Bill Jeffers: I would just reiterate that I believe, as Ms. Kornblum and others have said, the pipe needs to be scoped. A camera needs to be run down that pipe and find out where the obstruction exists. Mr. Nix asked who’s property the pipe’s on, from the inlet at the north end of the properties, down to the drop inlet with the wire cover, that appears to be mostly on the Smith’s property. So, if the obstruction exists there, that’s their obstruction. From that wire grate inlet, that’s southwesterly I believe, it runs through Ms. Utley’s property and the Volz’s property and underneath Cresthaven, by the way, that would not be the Smith’s property and would not be their responsibility if the obstruction exists there. I really don’t know about this, a tree, excuse me, when they put a fence in, Gail Smith says she believes they busted the pipe. If there’s actually a hole in the top of that pipe when they augured down to put the fence in, that would give access to tree roots right there.

President Tornatta: Right.

Bill Jeffers: It is a concrete pipe. It would take a crack in that pipe to let tree roots in. Mr. Schneider’s here, Ms. Smith represents that he saw the hole in the pipe.

President Tornatta: Would there be any issue with ground cover on either side?

Bill Jeffers: Ground cover?

President Tornatta: Yeah, I mean, there’s seems to be no ground cover, and I don’t know if that’s the Smith’s side or the Utley side.

Bill Jeffers: Oh, that’s on the Utley’s side. I would think, possibly, two causes for that, the standing water over a period of time would kill the grass, and then Ms. Utley told me she frequently puts bags of top soil down over the area to, I guess, raise it or level it. I had suggested to her that she plant grass seed or sod there to get some grass growing, but she could better tell you exactly the process is there.

President Tornatta: Okay.

Kathryn Kornblum: Are you talking about there?

President Tornatta: I’m going to have you–

Bill Jeffers: This area here.

Kathryn Kornblum: That’s the Schneider’s property.

Bill Jeffers: This is Ms. Utley’s property where it’s bare.

Kathryn Kornblum: Is that what you’re referring to, or the other picture I gave you?

President Tornatta: This one right here. That whole road has no ground cover in it. I just, to me it can’t accept–

Bill Jeffers: Well, go back to that last, number 12. If you look really closely, we’ve got the lights on, but if you look really closely at the tree crown, the root crown of that tree, you can see that the root crown of that tree is rotting, and there’s a root exposed coming out here towards the word area. That would indicate standing water. Root crown damage like that would indicate chronic standing water. Chronic standing water also kills grass. That’s an assumption on my part. But, I took the course from Larry Caplan.

Commissioner Nix: I had the same course.

Bill Jeffers: Yeah.

President Tornatta: Alright. Summation?

Kathryn Kornblum: As far as the fence cracking the pipe, my client knows nothing about that. She’s saying that’s not true at all. I do want to point out that the open drop picture, that was just recently put in. You can see in picture eight, that, see how she’s having to, this is on the Smith side, they’re having to hold up the ground. See how they have the concrete blocks holding it up. The watercourse is coming down, and that’s acting like a chute right onto Mrs. Utley’s property. There again, we would just like to, first of all, step one, have the thing scoped. If there’s a crack, there’s a crack, and it needs to be addressed.

President Tornatta: Would your client be willing to do the scope, and then if, with the findings, come back and maybe present that to this board or to the Smith’s? If so, if there’s something that needs to be further done, I mean, this body could make a decision.

Kathryn Kornblum: Are you willing to pay for the scope?

Evelyn Utley: I’m not sure that they understand the problems.

Kathryn Kornblum: Well, we need to, they need to get out of here, we need to get out of here. We need step one.

President Tornatta: Well, don’t, it’s not an issue of getting out of here. The issue is, if she pays for the scope–

Kathryn Kornblum: Will you pay for the scope?

President Tornatta: And, mind you, when I said pay for the scope, obviously, you know how to address your client, but–

Evelyn Utley: But, I haven’t caused all my problems.

President Tornatta: Well, hold on, I understand that there’s remedies for the cost, at some point. And, we can–

Kathryn Kornblum: We would reserve the right to be able to come back and ask for a reimbursement.

President Tornatta: Absolutely.

Kathryn Kornblum: Yes.

Commissioner Korb: That’s what we would suggest. At least we can find out what the problem is.

Kathryn Kornblum: That’s step one.

Commissioner Nix: No, you’re looking at–

Kathryn Kornblum: Step two is also the change of the watercourse that has been done by the Smith’s with adding the garage, adding the, they brought in tons and tons of dirt. So, there’s been changes made through the years.

Commissioner Nix: But, I guess, the concern I have, or it’s not necessarily a concern, but it’s a comment Mr. Jeffers made a little while ago was the fact that he says that if this is maintained, that this will take the water. Is that correct, Mr. Jeffers?

Bill Jeffers: I believe that if we ask the Smith’s to remove everything in the natural surface watercourse, that we then have to ask Ms. Utley to remove everything in her side of the natural surface watercourse.

President Tornatta: Right.

Bill Jeffers: And, that would mean everything that you’ve seen in these pictures, all the landscaping, the driveway, everything that’s in the true, natural surface watercourse, if it’s removed on one side of the fence, it should be removed on the other.

Commissioner Nix: Once again, my question–

Bill Jeffers: Now, and your question was, will the pipe handle it? I believe it will, if it’s in good repair. Now, we can go to the General Drainage Fund where all these hundred dollar filing fees accumulate, if you want me to go there and pay for the scoping work, I’ll do that and charge it back to where we find the obstruction. Okay, I’m not asking you to go to the boat, these folks back here to go to the boat, but you’re taking a gamble. I pay for it up front, and they pay for it where we find the obstruction.

President Tornatta: Well, I mean–

Kathryn Kornblum: I think that’s fair, because as we said, it goes across Cresthaven.

President Tornatta: Right.

Kathryn Kornblum: I mean, once it’s left Mrs. Utley’s property, there’s quite a bit of drainage that goes all the way across and hits Oak Hill.

President Tornatta: Okay.

Gail Smith: The water coming from me is not the one hitting her. The water that she is getting is coming from up, from Lakeland. All the water that comes across the Schneider, from all the other families, that’s the one that goes into that drain. Nothing that comes from me.

President Tornatta: Well, but, if you displaced the watercourse, then it is your issue.

Gail Smith: But, it’s not. It’s still, all you have to do is sit in my sunroom on a rainy night and watch, it looks like a river.

President Tornatta: We’re probably not going to do that. Appreciate the invite.

Gail Smith: I’m just saying.

Commissioner Korb: If you’re serving popcorn, I’ll come.

Commissioner Nix: Along those same lines though--

Gail Smith: (Inaudible).

Commissioner Nix: Ma’am?

Gail Smith: But, it is coming from across the (Inaudible).

President Tornatta: Hold on one second.

Commissioner Nix: Along those same lines, there were some things basically done to cover this up that would restrict this at some time, is that correct? That piece of metal that was put on the top.

Gail Smith: They put it on.

Commissioner Nix: Okay.

Gail Smith: Not I.

Commissioner Nix: Okay.

Gail Smith: Not I.

Commissioner Nix: Just so I understand who put that on.

President Tornatta: Okay–

Gail Smith: And, as far as the blocks, they’re not there to hold anything. I was going to change the landscape timbers, put the stones there and build up a rock retaining wall instead of the wood.

President Tornatta: Right.

Gail Smith: But, you know what, my back’s out, my neck’s out, my hip’s out, my pelvic’s like this and I can’t do it anymore.

President Tornatta: Okay, but here’s what we’ve got to find out first. I think first it seems like we need to find out about the pipe.

Gail Smith: Okay.

President Tornatta: Am I in the ball park here?

Gail Smith: Are you willing to listen to a testimony of the person who tried to repair it?

President Tornatta: Well, no.

Gail Smith: Okay, that’s fine.

President Tornatta: But, I appreciate that.

Evelyn Utley: I would like to speak, please.

President Tornatta: Okay.

Evelyn Utley: (Inaudible).

President Tornatta: No, wait, that’s fine. But, first, I think we would like to see that the pipe is–

Commissioner Nix: Clear.

President Tornatta: –is clear.

Commissioner Korb: Clear.

President Tornatta: Then, after that, we could maybe make more of an assessment, is that the thought?

Commissioner Korb: That’s my thought.

Kathryn Kornblum: My thoughts are, after that, then the next step is to see what needs to get taken care of so that the pipe is utilized–

President Tornatta: Right.

Kathryn Kornblum: –instead of Mrs. Utley’s yard.

Commissioner Nix: I guess, that’s the point I’m trying to make here is that if that pipe, if, Mr. Jeffers, in your humble opinion, if you think this is going to take care of it, it’s just a matter of scoping this thing out, finding out where the obstruction is, getting the water to this pipe, and this is a done deal.

Kathryn Kornblum: Right.

Commissioner Nix: Is that correct?

Bill Jeffers: That would appear to be correct, except that Ms. Utley, through Ms. Kornblum, is pointing up the hill, outside the natural watercourse. This water that naturally comes down the hill off the Smith’s, is not the watercourse I’m talking about. That’s why I asked at the beginning of the meeting, the beginning of the hearing that we don’t address these sheet flow issues, these other issues, in other words, I guess, what I’m saying is, let’s stick to the watercourse and the drain. The watercourse shown by those arrows and the drain that carries that watercourse. These issues off to the east, the sheet flow of water coming down a natural hill that was created by Mother Nature. If the Smith’s are maintaining a nuisance over there, take it to Circuit Court.

President Tornatta: Right.

Bill Jeffers: Take it to Superior Court. If that’s a nuisance, in other words, there have been several instances here, before you Commissioners were Commissioners, when other Commissioners were the Drainage Board in the past, that people were not satisfied with our finding. So, they took it to Superior Court or Circuit Court, and the Judge didn’t rule on 36-9-24. or 27.4, he said, okay, they’re maintaining a nuisance over here, and they have to fix it and pay them $7,000, Judge Tornatta.

President Tornatta: Right.

Bill Jeffers: Okay?

Commissioner Nix: Correct me if I’m wrong. One more time, just to get to the bottom of this, if we can determine that the water that goes into this inlet, that that pipe is big enough to carry that water away, for this particular case that we’re hearing right now, this hearing, and we determine that there is an obstruction and where the obstruction is, then, basically, that’s all we’re talking about here today?

Bill Jeffers: In the pipe.

President Tornatta: Yes.

Bill Jeffers: In the pipe.

Commissioner Nix: Thank you.

President Tornatta: Okay.

Bill Jeffers: This surface water that’s coming from all these odd other directions–

Commissioner Korb: That’s not our concern. We can’t–

Bill Jeffers: Right, but that’s been brought up to you, and they’re trying to say even if we do what I said we’re going to do, there’s still that issue over there to the side.

Commissioner Nix: And there very well could be.

Bill Jeffers: Okay.

Commissioner Nix: That’s understandable.

Commissioner Korb: But, that is, yeah.

President Tornatta: Okay, so, can I please have you finish, and if your client needs to say something, that’s fine.

Kathryn Kornblum: What she’s going to bring up is that she believes, and several other people believe that Mr. Schneider has messed with pipe, and I’m pointing out to her that the scoping would show that.

President Tornatta: Right.

Commissioner Korb: Uh-huh.

Kathryn Kornblum: So, I would propose, take your proposal to take it out of the budget that you were talking about, the one hundred dollar fees, get the whole thing scoped, all the way down to Oak Hill, and see if there’s an obstruction in the pipe.

President Tornatta: I think that that would be a, on the recommendation of the Surveyor, on the scoping of the project.

Kathryn Kornblum: From there, assuming there is a problem with the pipe, get the pipe fixed. If there isn’t a problem with the pipe, then address the natural watercourse to see what has been changed that’s interrupted (Inaudible)--

President Tornatta: And that would be the continuation of this meeting.

Kathryn Kornblum: That’s exactly right.

President Tornatta: Okay.

Bill Jeffers: Then, I will be going to vendors and asking them for the best price I can find for scoping the pipe. I’ll go to Hydromax first, get his price, I’ll go to two other people, get their price. As far as fixing the pipe, that will have to be done by, and paid for by whomever–

President Tornatta: Right.

Bill Jeffers: –the pipe’s–

President Tornatta: Is responsible.

Bill Jeffers: –property is on.

Commissioner Nix: The same way if that obstruction was at the surface, it’s down below.

Bill Jeffers: Right, well, wherever that is, if it’s in Cresthaven and that’s a county road, we do it, if it’s on private property, they do it.

President Tornatta: Okay, of the parties involved, of the parties involved, are you, okay? Because it might be on your dime. We are going to call the shots on who we pick.

Bill Jeffers: And, we’re talking about–

President Tornatta: Speak up now.

Bill Jeffers: –all the way down to Oak Hill Road, that includes the Volz’s.

President Tornatta: That’s right. So, I mean–

Kathryn Kornblum: It needs to be addressed.

President Tornatta: Okay, and we can do that, and we can provide the set up.

Commissioner Korb: And we’ll go forward from there.

President Tornatta: Is that okay?

Kathryn Kornblum: Yes, thank you.

President Tornatta: Can I have a motion please?

Commissioner Nix: So moved.

Commissioner Korb: Second.

President Tornatta: So ordered. We will continue this particular case until October 7^th.

President Tornatta: Okay, motion to approve claims?

Commissioner Korb: Motion.

Commissioner Nix: Second.

Commissioner Korb: So moved.

President Tornatta: So ordered.

President Tornatta: Okay, any public comment? With that being said, motion to adjourn?

Commissioner Korb: So moved.

Commissioner Nix: Second.

President Tornatta: So ordered.

(The meeting was adjourned at 7:00 p.m.)

Those in Attendance:

Troy Tornatta                            Bill Nix                                      Jeff Korb

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.          Bill Jeffers                                 Madelyn Grayson

Roger Huff                                Christi Huff                                Kathryn Kornblum

Gail Smith                                 Evelyn Utley                             Others Unidentified

Members of Media

VANDERBURGH COUNTY

DRAINAGE BOARD

Troy Tornatta, President

Bill Nix, Vice President

Jeff Korb, Member

(Recorded and transcribed by Madelyn Grayson.)