VANDERBURGH COUNTY

DRAINAGE BOARD

NOVEMBER 22, 2005

The Vanderburgh County Drainage Board met in session this 22^nd day of November, 2005 at 4:04 p.m. in room 301 of the Civic Center Complex with President Cheryl Musgrave presiding.

President Musgrave: Call to order the November 22^nd meeting of the Vanderburgh County Drainage Board.

President Musgrave: We have on the agenda the approval of the minutes of the previous meeting.

Commissioner Nix: So moved.

Commissioner Shetler: Second.

President Musgrave: All those in favor?

Commissioners: Aye.

President Musgrave: The minutes shall be shown approved.

President Musgrave: Old business, we have receive report on Schnaus petition to remove obstruction. Mr. Jeffers?

Bill Jeffers: Last month you received a petition from Steven R. Schnaus, 4109 Gayne Avenue, Evansville, Indiana, requesting the board order the removal of an obstruction alleged to exist on his neighbor’s properties. The statute requires that the Surveyor conduct an investigation and file a report. I e-mailed you copies of the report. Would anyone like a hard copy?

Commissioner Nix: Please.

Commissioner Shetler: If you have an extra.

Commissioner Nix: I left mine in the office.

Commissioner Shetler: Thank you.

Bill Jeffers: Sure. I have with me a notice of a hearing that I’ve prepared for Mr. Ziemer’s approval as to form. If he approves it as to form, I would suggest....

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Which I do.

Bill Jeffers: – you do, and I would suggest that the board sign it and have Madelyn Grayson advertise in the newspaper. I tried to make it as brief as I could so it wouldn’t cost too much. You can read the report. After you sign this you can read the report at your leisure.

President Musgrave: I have read the report.

Bill Jeffers: Okay.

President Musgrave: And am impressed with the in depth analysis that you put into place. I congratulate you and your staff.

Bill Jeffers: Well, thank you, Mrs. Musgrave. Since it’s the first such action that the three members of the board will have to deal with, I thought you should have as much information as I could provide. Normally, the report wouldn’t be that in depth, but I’m here to provide the details you need. So, I’m going to pass this for your signature, and as you ordered last month, the hearing will be held December 20, 2005 at or about 4:00 p.m.

President Musgrave: Do we need to have a motion on this advertisement, Mr. Ziemer?

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Yes.

Commissioner Nix: So moved.

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: To have a hearing for December 20th.

Commissioner Shetler: Second.

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: And to have it advertised.

President Musgrave: And your motion is to set the hearing for the 20^th?

Commissioner Nix: And order it advertised, yes.

President Musgrave: All those in favor?

All Commissioners: Aye.

President Musgrave: The motion carries.

Bill Jeffers: I will distribute the rest of these hard copies, along with a cover copy of the notice to the five affected property owners, and hope that they read it, and they can respond to our office if they have any questions before the 20^th. None of the persons affected are in the audience today to speak to it.

Madelyn Grayson: Mr. Jeffers, didn’t you say we also need to, did I miss that? We also need to send by certified mail a copy of this notice to those affected?

Bill Jeffers: Yes, Ma’am.

Madelyn Grayson: I’ll do that.

President Musgrave: Are you ready to move on to drainage plans, Mr. Jeffers?

Bill Jeffers: Yes, Ma’am.

President Musgrave: We come now to quarter lot three, formerly lots four and five, St. Joseph Industrial Park, final drainage plan.

Bill Jeffers: This is a plan on behalf of QTR, Corporation, Lot Three, which was previously known as lots four and five, St. Joe Industrial Park. That’s how you approved the preliminary plan as, I think, lot four and part of lot five, but they’ve gone through APC and incorporated it all into what’s now known as lot three.

President Musgrave: Oh, okay.

Bill Jeffers: St. Joe Industrial Park. This is a final drainage plan. The person preparing the plan, Justin Shofstall, from Andy Easley Engineering is here in the audience should you have any questions. The County Surveyor has reviewed the plan and find it comports with the drainage code and recommends approval of the final drainage plan for QTR.

Commissioner Nix: Move approval.

Commissioner Shetler: Second.

President Musgrave: All those in favor?

All Commissioners: Aye.

President Musgrave: The motion carries. I’m sorry I called it quarter when it should have been QTR.

Bill Jeffers: We all did that in the office. I should have put some periods between the initials.

President Musgrave: Are you ready to move to The Glens, a 25 acre residential development?

Bill Jeffers: Yes, Ma’am.

President Musgrave: It is the preliminary drainage plan.

Bill Jeffers: Okay, preliminary drainage plan is required, or it’s not, well, Area Plan Commission requires that a drainage plan be approved before they hear a subdivision for primary approval on the second Thursday of the month in December. This is a preliminary plan that meets the requirements of the drainage code for preliminary plan. A final plan will have to have much more detail. But, this allows the developer to move forward with a conceptual plan that should the subdivision plat be approved at next month’s Area Plan Commission meeting, the developer can instruct his engineer to move forward with a more detailed and more expensive plan for the entire subdivision that the drainage code requires much more detail of. Mr. Keith Poff is the engineer for this plan, and he’s here in the audience to answer any questions, if you should have them.

President Musgrave: I have a question. I sit on Area Plan as well and have seen some of the discussion about this proposed development come forward, and I am very concerned about Mariner Drive and it’s nearness to the Lynch Road, and quite concerned that there will be left turns going in and out of this. I’m opposed to those residences feeding out onto Mariner Drive, and would prefer access going to the other subdivision to the north, and then access to Oak Hill further north, instead of Mariner Drive. I’m fairly new on drainage board, and what I don’t understand is whether preliminary approval of these plans forecloses an opportunity later for the improved access that I just outlined to be made.

Bill Jeffers: I agree exactly with what you’ve said. I guess, I should put in a disclaimer, I drive Oak Hill Road a minimum twice a day to and from work. I also sit on Area Plan Commission, and am also thinking exactly like you are with regards to the traffic situation at Mariner and Oak Hill. EUTS estimates 860 cars per day will exit Mariner, if you don’t know where Mariner is, that’s the Moto gas station at Lynch and Oak Hill. There’s a development that’s under review by the city across the street behind, Citizens became Fifth Third? Fifth Third Bank and that will be probably, most likely a drug store, what’s the one with the initials down there?

Commissioner Nix: CVS.

Bill Jeffers: CVS drug store which generates a lot of traffic, and may have a liquor license since it’s inside the city on the other side of the street. The exits, Mariner Drive does not line up with the proposed exit for CVS. Those are offset so that the left turners on to Oak Hill Road will be conflicting, and both of the exiting traffics, traffic flows will be across turn lanes. There would be essentially four lanes that will be crossing at an extremely busy intersection. So, those are concerns that should be addressed by Area Plan Commission and EUTS. That’s my disclaimer, you know, I’m not happy with the traffic situation. However, the question is, will your approval of a preliminary drainage plan preclude the possibility for a modification of the traffic plan? The answer to that is no. Your approval is required for this plan to move, for the plat itself to move forward to APC. APC will not hear the primary plat if you deny the drainage plan. But, they are separate issues until you talk about the extension of streets eastward to intersect with the southerly extension of Congress, which would take it up to two other roads out to Oak Hill, Bergdolt and it’s not Eastbrook, it’s–

Unidentified: Elmridge.

Bill Jeffers: Elmridge, thank you. Those two would then exit, both those have traffic problems. I believe your Commission is considering an upgrade of Bergdolt and Oak Hill that’s very similar to St. George.

Commissioner Nix: That’s in the workings here as we speak.

Bill Jeffers: Right. Elmridge is horrible. I personally slow down and let two or three cars out of Elmridge each time I come in to town, because they are backed up.

Commissioner Nix: Let me ask you, Mr. Jeffers, if there are road improvements, or there’s additional access in and out, would that impact these drainage issues?

Bill Jeffers: Yes, sir, that’s exactly what I was taking too long to get around to.

Commissioner Nix: I’m sorry.

Bill Jeffers: You’re exactly right. To extend a road eastward to intersect with Congress would require going across about a 12 foot deep gully that will have to have drainage facilities to allow all the water that drains out of the other subdivisions, and this proposed subdivision, to get to Pigeon Creek. That would have to show up on a modified version of the drainage plan that’s before you now. If they went north, directly from the subdivision through what appears to be a right-of-way to Elmridge, but may not be a complete, that would require some drainage structures that would have to be incorporated also. So, the answer, the short answer is, no, your approval of this preliminary plan does not preclude modifications that would appear in a final plan, but, yes, it does allow the plat to move forward to Area Plan Commission.

President Musgrave: I have another question. On what grounds can we deny a preliminary drainage plan?

Bill Jeffers: My layman’s opinion is that you have two grounds, one is if the plan does not comport with the requirements of content of the drainage code. It does comport with the required contents. The second way that you can deny it is that the code allows the board to act, at their discretion, on a case by case basis, and doesn’t give, doesn’t say that you have to have any specific reasons for acting on a case by case basis.

President Musgrave: Well, I would personally like to see a drainage plan that addresses access to some other ingress/egress–

Commissioner Nix: And correct me if I’m wrong, if there are additional, anything that’s added to this, or taking, well, anything that’s added to this, it would be brought back in front of the drainage board before it would be approved, is that correct? If there’s any modifications?

Bill Jeffers: If there’s any modifications to the plan that you have in front of you that are incorporated into the final plan, that you would probably hear in a month or two from now, the plat will have already been approved, or disapproved by Area Plan Commission. You may need to know since two of you, I don’t believe, Mr. Shetler, have you served on Area Plan Commission in the past?

Commissioner Shetler: I have.

Bill Jeffers: You have, okay. Since you’ve served, there’s been a court ruling where a local judge ruled in favor of the plaintiff who sued the Area Plan Commission because we denied a plat that was found to have totally comported with the local subdivision code, but many of us on the Area Plan Commission disagreed and thought that there should be other conditions added to the plat, and some of us even moved some of those conditions to be added to the plat, but the courts struck that down and said that we were to only vote, that we, actually the court decision that we must vote yes for any plat that meets the requirements, the minimum requirements of the subdivision code.

President Musgrave: That’s at Area Plan and not drainage board?

Bill Jeffers: That’s at Area Plan. What I’m saying, and you will remember this, Mrs. Musgrave, I specifically made a motion at Area Plan Commission that Heritage Park have a service road, and I documented it with trips per day, etcetera, and was instructed, was encouraged by the attorney for Area Plan Commission not to introduce the motion, and upon the attorney’s advice, the motion was defeated, I think one or two to ten. You know the results of that project at this time.

President Musgrave: And I am so enjoying them.

Bill Jeffers: I should tell you before, you may have some other questions, but I should tell you that Fred and Lori Meyers of 4115 Rosewood Avenue and R.A. Schaefer of 3311 Oak Terrace are both here to speak to this issue.

President Musgrave: Alright, whichever of you prefers to come first.

Fred Meyers: I’m Fred Meyers, this is my wife, Lori. We first came on the drainage, but since we’ve been discussing the exit in and out, if we can proceed with that, because I’m going to be right back at the Plan Commission if it goes this far. Can I just use this kind of–

Bill Jeffers: Here, sir, right here is–

Fred Meyers: Oh, you’ve got a pointer. I’m retired, I haven’t used one of these in five years.

Bill Jeffers: Well, I’m retarded.

Fred Meyers: Thank you.

Unidentified: (Inaudible. Not at mic.)

President Musgrave: Mr. and Mrs. Meyers?

Lori Meyers: Yes, Ma’am?

President Musgrave: Do please confine your comments to drainage related issues since this is the drainage board.

Fred Meyers: Okay, will do. Our property, can this be moved–

Brenda Jeffers: Yes.

Fred Meyers: –where this shows this way a little bit? Perfect. Okay, see right here, this is Rosewood Avenue. My property is right here, all this down here. Now, the drainage question I have is where is the water going to come to? Right here is Pigeon Creek. In the fall and the winter when the Ohio River floods, Pigeon Creek floods. This entire area backs up with water. This is a, along this property here, this is like a drainage creek, and all the water from the subdivision here and here drains down through here. This is, I think what you were saying, where you extend the street through you’ve got to drop down, but this is all like a natural drainage area. When we had the county assessment come in, you know, I appealed with all my property here, and then a county assessor came out and I’m paying like $20 a month now instead of $2,000. So, I suggest–

Lori Meyers: It’s not, excuse me, it’s not property that you can develop. It’s all within the flood plain. It’s not buildable property.

Fred Meyers: When they come in about two years ago they put in storm sewers in our subdivision here, which before was natural runoff. Well, what has happened now, down in this natural area the water sits. Where before the natural runoff would just, it would dissipate. If you come out in the fall and the spring when the floods come up and all this backs up, where is this water going to go? Now, just remember, Pigeon Creek is on this side right over here. I think there’s a culvert that runs underneath here, but this natural drainage comes from Pigeon Creek. But it does back up. Right there, that’s where there’s a basketball court in my backyard. That floods every year. It gets up to probably close to about ten feet from my back fence. This is flood plain. This is flood plain. Because I pay flood plain insurance right now. So, my question would be for the drainage coming in, where is the water going to go? Basically, I think it’s going to come this way.

President Musgrave: Mr. Jeffers?

Fred Meyers: I think that’s what you have to look at. I’m sorry if I’m not speaking in the microphone.

President Musgrave: I think you’re okay.

Fred Meyers: Okay.

President Musgrave: But, I wanted to make sure that the engineer had the opportunity to answer that question.

Fred Meyers: The engineer’s been out there to physically look at it.

Bill Jeffers: Yes, the plan shows some small amount of drainage from these lots will come out along Lynch Road right-of-way ditch and travel straight down to where the bridge carries Pigeon Creek under Lynch Road, the large bridge that was built by the federal project. Okay? The rest of the area, which is the front yards of all these lots, this central area, and the front yards of this tier up here will all drain back into this area where there will be a large lake. We call them detention lakes. The water will be stored in this area, held, and released at a slower rate of a ten year storm. They’ve established the release rate for a ten year storm. It will be discharged out this way and down through this natural watercourse right through here, which joins with the Lynch Road drainage, at some point, and it also goes over here to the large bridge and passes under Lynch Road. There is a natural, as Mr. Meyers states, there’s a natural waterway down along this back line. It will be left there, and the backyards of all these lots from right here, all the backyards all the way down, will continue to drain into that natural open ditch, and that will also come through the Meyers’ property at the rate of which, you know, at a sheet flow rate at which it would naturally flow off the backyards. We anticipate no hard surfaces would contribute to that grassy area back there, but as we know there may be a few patios and swimming pools and that type of thing. But, basically, that would just be sheet flow.

Fred Meyers: (Inaudible).

Bill Jeffers: Then the, as I said, the engineer is here to answer more technical details if they should be needed.

Commissioner Shetler: Mr. Jeffers?

Fred Meyers: Let me just correct one thing. There is a culvert that the water that runs here, a little creek comes across underneath Lynch Road into Pigeon Creek. The water does not necessarily always, the water that comes here flows underneath this culvert into Pigeon Creek. When the water is up, it floods, then it comes up and there’s some retention ponds up here and the water goes here, but, basically, right now, the water goes this way. Not this way. Because you can walk through my backyard and see the culvert that goes under the bridge.

Commissioner Nix: Where do you normally see the water coming from?

Fred Meyers: It, it basically comes, when we have rain and storm water, all the water comes from the subdivisions up here down this way. When the Ohio River floods, or Pigeon Creek floods, everything backs up, then the water comes this way. It goes backwards and just rises. When they put the new culverts in there, I thought we’re going to have water popping out of the storm sewers, but I think that it was deep enough that it didn’t do it. So, what happens during flood season, this is all flooded area, so I don’t know if this is going to cause any more problems during our two or three floods a year.

President Musgrave: So, you’re objecting to the drainage plan that has been filed today?

Fred Meyers: Yes.

Lori Meyers: Yes.

President Musgrave: Alright, thank you.

Bill Jeffers: How long have you lived there?

Lori Meyers: Since January of 2000.

President Musgrave: The question was how long they had lived there.

Bill Jeffers: Yes, I asked them how long they lived there, January of 2000 was the answer. The reason I asked that is that in 1996 we had what some people consider a 100 year storm, it wasn’t a 100 year flood, because the river wasn’t in 100 year flood stage, but the watershed generated a 100 year runoff, and the water, as Mr. Meyers pointed out, backed up. This street here was flooded pretty much back to the first house. This area was all flooded pretty much right up to the backyard. Elmridge was flooded several feet deep where this creek crosses Elmridge up here, and one house was flooded, oh, 14 inches deep up there, it’s built below flood plain though.

President Musgrave: So, you’re saying the street itself was flooded?

Bill Jeffers: Yeah, all these streets were flooded at some point, and the water backed up from Pigeon Creek all the way back up to about here. It was six inches deeper than on this side over here because Lynch Road holds back that much.

Commissioner Nix: : Correct me if I’m wrong, Mr. Jeffers, this development here is taking in consideration the water that is going to maintain within itself, is that correct? I mean–

Bill Jeffers: Yes, sir.

Commissioner Nix: –because that’s normally, the drainage plan, that’s the whole idea behind this is–

Bill Jeffers: That’s correct.

Commissioner Nix: –if you add hard surface, or if you do any of those things at all that you’ve got a, you have to show that you’re going to retain more water than you originally retained before adding hard surfaces and roofs and what have you, is that correct?

Bill Jeffers: That’s correct. This subdivision here, at one time was planned to be apartments by Mr. Buddy Bauer, Sr. This was called MIB Subdivision, and it was all going to be apartments, and we had, the drainage board had released them from the obligation of detention, because at that time Lynch Road had not been built yet, okay? And open drainage would have allowed for all that water to run off to the creek, very quickly, and not negatively impact any properties, because it’s so close to the creek, and Lynch Road side ditch could have carried that, but the design for the bridge was such, by the state, who likes to cut it down to the bare minimum cost, that the opening from Pigeon Creek raises the flood plain one tenth of an inch at the opening, and as I said, five tenths of a foot back here, one tenth of a foot. Back here it’s five tenths of a foot higher, half a foot higher. So, at that, so, when this came through I asked Mr. Poff to put detention in here to release us from our previous waiver, and he agreed and Mr. Buck agreed to put the detention basin in here, hold a 25 year storm and release it as a ten year pre-development storm. That meets the requirement of our drainage ordinance, and should satisfy the additional runoff, control it and release it at a slower rate.

Commissioner Nix: So, in essence, and after running the numbers, this really isn’t going to impact this drainage issue at all along the east portion of this property?

Bill Jeffers: It will be very insignificant, because this is such a huge watershed. I mean, we are draining everything from almost Princeton, up near Toyota, you know what I’m saying?

Commissioner Nix: So, the problem is not this–

Bill Jeffers: A very insignificant amount of additional runoff. It’s controlled to runoff at a lower rate than it would otherwise runoff.

Commissioner Nix: So, in essence, it may even help them a little bit?

Bill Jeffers: It may help, that’s correct.

Lori Meyers: Excuse me, Mr. Jeffers, where would it improve? Excuse me, where would it improve the runoff do you believe?

Bill Jeffers: What it, essentially, what the plan does is holds the water in this lake and releases it into this creek, this waterway right here, which is hard to tell with the lights on, but there is a definite deep ditch through here, well, right there it is–

Lori Meyers: Right.

Bill Jeffers: –and it will–

Lori Meyers: (Inaudible) middle of our property (Inaudible).

Bill Jeffers: That’s right, it will release the water into that ditch at a much slower rate than would otherwise come off of there during a heavy rainstorm. So, it will, that’s the improvement it makes, it releases the water at a slower rate. Less cubic feet per second. So, it has less impact on the ditch that runs through your property.

President Musgrave: Was there another objector present who would like to put some remarks on the record?

Robert Schaefer: No, (Inaudible. Not at the mic.)

President Musgrave: All you can talk about at today’s meeting is drainage.

Robert Schaefer: I live on (Inaudible)--

President Musgrave: I need you to come to the microphone though, otherwise, your comments are lost for the record. Go ahead and state your name and address again.

Robert Schaefer: I’m Robert Schaefer, and I live at 3311 Oak Terrace. Where’s that pointer at?

Bill Jeffers: Push this button right here.

Robert Schaefer: Okay. I live back here on Oak Terrace on the back side of it. So, I wouldn’t have any drainage problems. So, I wasn’t really interested in the drainage today, it was the traffic problems I was worried about.

President Musgrave: Okay, so, you’ll be back to the Area Plan meeting–

Robert Schaefer: Yes.

President Musgrave: –if this board approves the drainage plan.

Robert Schaefer: That’s correct, yes.

President Musgrave: Okay, those of you who are opposed to this in one form or another, you may want to form a group and get some exhibits and organize before you come to the Area Plan meeting. That’s a very effective way to get your message across. Is there anything further? Oh, Mr. Shetler?

Commissioner Shetler: Mr. Jeffers? Now, would it make any difference if we’re talking about the spring of the year, particularly, I guess, late winter, early spring when we get the flood waters and the back waters from Pigeon Creek, I know there’s a drainage pond that’s further east of this project–

Bill Jeffers: Yes, sir.

Commissioner Shetler: –maybe slightly north, but I think it’s primarily pretty east of that, and that whole area becomes, it seems like very swamped at best, many times flooded at that time of the year.

Bill Jeffers: That’s correct.

Commissioner Shetler: So, is this going to be something with all the hard surfaces and everything that’s going to actually make it, you know, wetter, and more of a problem, more often?

Bill Jeffers: The, this pond here is a borrow pit that was used to acquire dirt either to build Lynch Road or to raise the houses back here in Romain Subdivision. This one here, you see just the southern part of it, that’s another detention basin that holds water and releases it more slowly into Pigeon Creek. There will be a greater amount of runoff from the individual lots in this subdivision after development because they will be covered with between 35 and 45 percent hard surface; rooftops, driveways, patios, swimming pools, etcetera, sidewalks. That will increase the rate of runoff from the surface within this 25 acres substantially. Because it increases the runoff, especially during the times of year that you’re speaking of, Mr. Shetler, when the ground is saturated to begin with, we know that it will increase that runoff, that’s why we have the code requirement to build a detention basin here, and all that, not all of it, but the majority of the hard surface water will be piped into that basin from the street system and from the yards and held there, and the basin has an orifice plate in the outlet pipe that only allows so many cubic feet per second to leave the basin. All the rest of it continues to stack up in the basin and store, and over a longer period of time, where that 25 acre field might reach a peak discharge under natural conditions, it’s an alfalfa field for the last couple of years, say it would take four hours for the water to peak and discharge, and it would probably discharge it at a rate that would fill a 12 inch pipe or a 15 inch pipe. If you were to pave it and not have any detention at all, it would probably peak out at about 28 minutes, and it would run at peak for six hours and it would take a 48 inch pipe to carry all that water. So, that’s why we’re storing it in that basin and the orifice, Keith, what size orifice is that?

Keith Poff: (Inaudible).

Bill Jeffers: It’s a 12 inch pipe, that’s all the water that can leave that basin, out of a 12 inch pipe, just like as if it were still an alfalfa field, but it will be leaving out of that pipe for probably four hours, rather than just a few minutes. Now, that should, that does satisfy the requirement of the code. However, if you’re under flood conditions, you’re just, there’s a common expression for it that we use in the field, but spittin’ in the wind I think they call it, you know.

Commissioner Shetler: I guess, my concern is, is that I see this detention or retention pond–

Bill Jeffers: Yes, sir.

Commissioner Shetler: –that is basically north of the eastern part of that subdivision. As opposed to being entirely on the eastern part of it. That is also on a downhill slope, that whole property. I’m just kind of wondering how, some of that looks like you have to run some water laterally or else uphill, and I’m not so sure how that’s going to all work. It’s defying gravity to some degree. I’m looking at least, particularly that eastern, or the southern side of that development.

Keith Poff: Good afternoon, Keith Poff of Sitecon. If the cul-de-sac that extends to the east actually lies on a natural ridge portion, part of that property has a higher elevation on the south side than the north side. So, we have placed the detention basin in the natural location, really don’t accomplish much when you work against what the grade is doing, so, our grade will fall down to the natural location, which is the north side of that project. But the properties that are south, directly south of about ten, twelve lots, well, actually it would be double on both sides, they’ll only be able to go that direction then. We’re going to collect developed water from effectively the house location to the street. All of the interior will go into the basin. The portion of the property that will not go into the detention basin are the extreme south half of the lots along Lynch Road, because they can drain into a roadside ditch, the extreme southeast corner, which naturally falls in that direction anyway, but everything that’s improved we will have the rooftop water, the street water go into the piping system and ultimately into the lake.

Commissioner Shetler: So, then what you’re telling me then is that those ten, twelve, fourteen lots that are south of the detention pond will go directly into an open drainage that will flow down into that lower part, that basin, they won’t be detained at all? In the–

Keith Poff: I think I’m going to have to get a clarification of where you’re at.

Fred Meyers: There’s a ridge that runs right along–

Commissioner Shetler: These lots here, will these be going down here or are they going to go back over here and be detained for a bit?

Keith Poff: No. The purple lines that you see and the basin numbers, this is an area, basin B1 is this entire polygon–

Commissioner Shetler: Yes.

Keith Poff:– will be collected into this curb inlet. Just like this polygon on this side will be collected in that inlet, and all that water will come through this pipe into the lake. So, the portions that are outside here are the ones that will not go into the detention basin.

Commissioner Nix: And this was a natural drain to Lynch Road anyway.

Keith Poff: Well, it’s a roadside ditch in the natural direction.

Commissioner Nix: Right.

Keith Poff: But, the backyards will be less improved with impervious than anything else. Most people do keep the majority of the rear lawn area.

Commissioner Shetler: But, this stuff is basically going to come down here and go down into that valley–

Keith Poff: Yes.

Commissioner Shetler: –where it floods anyway, and there will be some addition to it.

Keith Poff: That’s the current path of drainage today.

Commissioner Shetler: I understand, but they’re not, it’s not with hard surface on it improved.

Keith Poff: Well, these areas won’t be.

Commissioner Shetler: It’s going to add something to it.

Keith Poff: No, everything, the houses and things like that are being brought into the front. If you look at the building location, it’s going to sit 25 feet from the street, so where that lot number is is where the house will sit. So, the house is completely inside the collection area.

Commissioner Shetler: All patios, all–

Keith Poff: Not necessarily. I can’t guarantee that. But, those are the–

Commissioner Shetler: –rear gutters on the back end of the houses, all that kind of stuff?

Keith Poff: Will be required to come to the street. (Inaudible).

Commissioner Shetler: Because I travel that way a lot, and I know how bad it gets.

Commissioner Nix: Mr. Poff, there’s a formula that you use, I’m familiar with this because we just got off of it. There’s a formula that you use that equates the existing runoff and what you’re doing right now. How much are you going to improve the runoff on the property on a percentage basis by putting this detention in versus the way it sits right now?

Keith Poff: I don’t know if I can express that as a percentage. I can tell you that the code requirement is that we analyze the existing property surface conditions in a ten year rainfall event on those conditions, come up with a flow rate that that entire site will generate. Then we take a 25 year storm on the developed conditions, calculate that flow, we take the difference, and we hold that. That’s what is required by the drainage ordinance is to hold a 25 year developed flow to a 10 year undeveloped rate. For this piece of property that came out to 50,000 cubic feet of storage. The basin that we are going to provide is going to hold approximately 250,000 cubic feet of storage. So, we’re going to provide about five times what the code requires us.

Commissioner Shetler: I understand that it’s adequate to take care of the stuff that’s west of and adjacent to, but the properties that I’m concerned that I think are going to be an additional burden on the already flooded areas, at least flooded during particular times of the year, are some of those properties that are south, at least the back sides of those properties, which will be somewhat developed, and we’re going to increase some runoff because of those.

Keith Poff: I don’t know that I could even calculate the difference on what that would be for a condition of some have patios and some don’t. I mean, I don’t think the magnitude would even show up in the calculation for those areas. But, we are collecting the majority of our site into one basin that is on the opposite side of the natural drain. You’re not going across that natural drain position, so, we are holding everything on our side of the hill, if you will, holding it to the rate that we’re required to hold, providing five times the required storage, and then releasing it at that required rate.

President Musgrave: May I ask you to hold your comments while we change the tape?

(Tape change)

President Musgrave: Alright. Anything further?

Commissioner Nix: So, in essence, I mean, just the bottom line is, you’re actually helping this drainage situation?

Keith Poff: Up to a 25 year storm event this project will assist in holding back some storm water.

Commissioner Nix: Taking into consideration–

Keith Poff: Yeah.

Commissioner Nix: –excuse me, the hard surface and all the other things over and above that?

Keith Poff: If you will, if we can go back to just the storm event, we’re going to hold the water back to a 10 year storm when there’s a 25 year storm that occurs. So, we’re actually making an improvement there just by the storm event that’s on the area. If that field were there today and there’s a 25 year storm event, it would generate more water than what this development will generate when there’s a 25 year storm event. We have to hold it to a ten.

President Musgrave: Thank you. Any further comments?

Bill Jeffers: While Mr. Poff was up at the desk, up at the front desk, did I hear you say that the down spouts from the backsides of the southern tier of lots, all the homes, the down spouts from the backsides will have to be taken out to the street?

Keith Poff: Well, we haven’t committed to that, but that’s a requirement that can be made if you would like. Normally, what we prefer to do is to have the down spouts pop up and emit their discharge in the lawn areas. If those lawn areas were graded to the front, then it would go to the front. If those need to stay ten feet away from the home, if in a development like this there’s only five feet to the property line then they normally go to the rear, and then they discharge the water across the surface. If they go to the rear, then they’ll go to the rear of the property.

Bill Jeffers: I might have misunderstood, because I was sitting back there and you all were speaking up there, but that would have addressed some of Mr. Shetler’s concerns that as much hard surface as possible would be drained to the street, even some of the backyard.

Keith Poff: That’s something that we can consider. It’s just that at this point we’re discouraged from piping storm water runoff unnecessarily. We’re encourage to put it into the grass areas.

President Musgrave: Mrs. Meyers, you had an additional comment?

Lori Meyers: Yes, thank you. I just wanted to reference that the ten year numbers, I believe from ‘96 from what Mr. Jeffers mentioned don’t, I don’t know if they take in to consideration the storm sewer improvements that were put into the subdivision in the year 2002? From the fall of 2002 through the early part of 2003. The reason I reference this is they went through Congress Avenue in front of our home on Rosewood and up part of, both ends of North Iroquois and put in storm sewer and they routed all of that to drain through the easement down through the end of Congress down by our property. So, that water from those storm sewer additions now drains to this same bottom point that they were referencing.

Fred Meyers: (Inaudible).

Lori Meyers: It sits.

President Musgrave: Thank you.

Lori Meyers: Was that clear, Ma’am?

President Musgrave: Yes, that was. Thank you, Mrs. Meyers. Mr. Jeffers, do you have further information?

Bill Jeffers: No, Ma’am, other than to tell you that, I think I’ve already said that the preliminary plan does comport with the minimum requirements of the drainage code for a preliminary plan.

Commissioner Nix: Let me make sure I understand this too. If there are any changes to this at all, then it comes back in front of this board? Is that correct?

Bill Jeffers: Yes, sir. Any modifications whatsoever to this plan–

Commissioner Nix: This is preliminary anyway, so it’s going to come back.

Bill Jeffers: –must be incorporated into the final plan.

Commissioner Nix: This isn’t complete.

Bill Jeffers: Or subsequent modifications of the final plan could, if they are significant would come back before you. Or if you ask that all modifications come back before you, that would be the case.

President Musgrave: This plan would allow them to go forward to Area Plan for a rezoning, and then Area Plan is the final word on a rezoning, correct?

Bill Jeffers: Approval of this plan would allow them to go forward for the approval of their primary plat. Their rezoning is somewhat separate. I think they are going for an R-3 zoning so they can cover more hard surface. In other words, under R-1 they can only go 35 percent of total area hard surface on a lot. They want to have 86, my understanding is they want to have 86 lots with 40 or 45 percent coverage, so that’s the rezoning issue. But, no, this, your approval of this drainage plan will allow them to appear in front of Area Plan Commission for primary plat approval.

President Musgrave: Commissioners, is there a motion?

Commissioner Nix: I make a motion that we approve.

Commissioner Shetler: I’ll second. I have serious reservations, but I realize it’s more technical in nature than it is otherwise, but I have very serious questions about traffic and other things that I think are more considered for when we deal with the rezoning issues later. But, I’ll second the motion.

President Musgrave: All those in favor?

Commissioner Nix: Aye.

Commissioner Shetler: Aye.

President Musgrave: Opposed? Aye. The motion carries.

President Musgrave: We move now to other business. Receive petition to remove obstruction.

Bill Jeffers: Mr. and Mrs. Larry Mayes were in the office today and withdrew the petition, and we’ll try to work with them and their neighbor on resolving the issue. They are temporarily withdrawing the petition. I have signed a quietus was it?

Madelyn Grayson: It was a blue claim to reinstate their petition filing fee.

Bill Jeffers: Right, so they got their $100 back.

President Musgrave: Next we move to the request to relax right-of-way entry, Crawford Brandeis Ditch, lot 26, Burkhardt Crossing.

President Musgrave: Mr. Jeffers, would it be appropriate to make a second motion that all of the changes of The Glens, for the drainage plan come back to this board?

Bill Jeffers: At your discretion, you may do that.

Commissioner Nix: So moved. I think that would be good.

Commissioner Shetler: Second.

President Musgrave: Any further discussion? All those in favor?

All Commissioners: Aye.

President Musgrave: So, let the record show that this board expects any and all drainage plans made to The Glens to come back to this board for approval. Thank you.

Bill Jeffers: Okay, drainage code 36, or Indiana Code 36-9-27, which is the drainage code for the state, allows for a 75 foot right-of-entry for county regulated drains. If you look at the drawing that I put in front of you, lot 26 has that 75 foot right-of-entry imposed upon it. Burkhardt Crossing is the subdivision, it’s a commercial subdivision. Lowe’s is in this subdivision, across Old National Drive from this site to give you an idea of where we’re at at Burkhardt and Morgan. To the north, lot 25 we relaxed the regulated drain easement to 20 feet from the center of the closest storm box culvert in Crawford Brandeis Ditch to allow Hudson Hyundai, which later became Kenny Kent Hyundai, to build their parking lot. We decided we still had plenty of room to do whatever maintenance we need to do to that box culvert, Crawford Brandeis Ditch, within that 20 feet. The law allows you to reduce it to no less than 15 feet from the center of the pipe, we’re asking for 20 feet, as measured from the center of the eastern most box of that pipe. This is allowable and desirable for the owner of lot 26 who is here in the audience with Mr. Jim Morley, James E. Morley, who is the engineer and land surveyor representing this request. I believe the petitioner is asking to do this so that he can establish a car wash. So, it will be paved area. He will have to come back to site review. I will not allow any permanent structures to be erected in that area that would impede the proper maintenance and repair of the storm box that’s owned by the county. I recommend that you allow this relaxation to 20 feet as measured from the center of the eastern most box culvert, Crawford Brandeis Ditch.

Commissioner Shetler: So moved.

Commissioner Nix: Second.

President Musgrave: Any discussion? All those in favor?

Commissioners: Aye.

President Musgrave: The motion carries. We move now to ditch maintenance claims. Are there any claims?

Bill Jeffers: There are, but there is one item that doesn’t appear on your agenda, if I may impose upon you. Very simple. It would be in this place if I had gotten it on the agenda. This is way out on the west side at Eickhoff Koressel Road. It’s called Ashley Place Subdivision, I believe.

Unidentified: Section D.

Bill Jeffers: Section D is outlined in red, it’s lot 36. We have an easement, it’s a 15 foot wide drainage easement along these lots right here. The reason being, you can see this pond used to be there, and we thought that leakage from this dam, I mean the pond was actually built over on this property, it had to be moved back, and we thought that seepage from this area might have to be intercepted along this easement and routed south to the big ditch and off. So, at the time of drainage planning several years ago, five or six years ago, we required a 15 foot easement there. Subsequently, the man that owns this property felt that this was a liability from all the children and he has filled all this area in. That pond no longer exists. So, the purpose for this easement has been drastically reduced and it’s really not needed at all at this time. I don’t want to abandon that easement though should someone else build a pond there. In the meantime, the owner of lot 36 desires to build a swimming pool. You can see that’s a small lot from the drawing. Her home is in very close proximity to the back line, and her pool installer needs to encroach about one half of the drainage easement with the deck so that she might enjoy a pool. Our procedures allow for the encroachment of a drainage easement if the owner of the property submits the proper forms, which she has. They’ve been, the survey’s been completed by Mr. Bill Bivins here in the audience, professional land surveyor. It’s shown on your diagram here and the form has been approved by your attorney. The County Surveyor recommends that the board allow the encroachment as shown on this drawing which will be recorded in the County Recorder’s office miscellaneous records and tied to the chain of title for future owners.

Commissioner Nix: So moved.

Commissioner Shetler: I will second, but I’ve got a question real quickly. That, you said decking, is that a wooden structure or is that concrete decking around the pool or what?

Bill Bivins: Bill Bivins that’s a five foot concrete slab that goes around the pool.

Commissioner Shetler: Alright, thank you.

President Musgrave: We have a motion and a second. All those in favor?

All Commissioners: Aye.

President Musgrave: The motion carries. Are there any more insertions into the agenda this evening, Mr. Jeffers?

Bill Jeffers: No, Ma’am.

 Commissioner Nix: Mr. Jeffers, while you’re up, and I don’t want to keep you any longer, but–

Bill Jeffers: Do we want to do the claims before you–

Commissioner Nix: Okay, we can do the claims, and then maybe new business.

Bill Jeffers: Okay.

Bill Jeffers: As Madam Chairman brought up before I interrupted her, the ditch claims are now on your desk. They are claims for regular maintenance of regulated drains. Annual maintenance has been completed, has been inspected by our crew, and approved, signed by the County Surveyor with the required documentation attached, and I recommend approval for payment.

President Musgrave: Do I have a motion?

Commissioner Nix: So moved.

Commissioner Shetler: Second.

President Musgrave: All those in favor?

All Commissioners: Aye.

President Musgrave: The motion carries.

Bill Jeffers: Yes, sir?

President Musgrave: Commissioner?

Commissioner Nix: Drainage issues at Eastbrook. We touched on that a couple of weeks ago, are we in a position to do anything with that? Or have you, and I guess I probably should have gotten back with you before now, but what do we need to do out there, Bill, to–

Bill Jeffers: The County Surveyor, to some degree, and the drainage board, to some degree, are responsible not only for conveyance of storm water, but the quality of the storm water we convey through our ditches. The Environmental Protection Agency, the Federal Environmental Protection Agency and Indiana Department of Environmental Management encourage us to do what we can to minimize pollution into our storm runoff. As you know from having worked long, diligent hours yourselves out there, there are a lot of potential storm water pollutants in the form of paint, oils, gasoline, detergents, aerosol cans, what have you.

President Musgrave: And these constitute a threat to public health and safety.

Bill Jeffers: And they constitute a threat to public health and safety, and that’s exactly why IDEM and EPA have mandated that we minimize their entry into storm water runoff. This board maintains Eagle Slough into which Eastbrook Mobile Home Park drains almost directly. Eagle Slough is outside the levee system, it takes all the levee’s water and discharges it through what’s known as Catfish Pond directly into the Ohio River. That’s the water of the United States of America, and as such is protected by the Clean Water Standards Act and I encourage you to do what we can, have me to do what I can, our inspectors have been out there and pulled a lot of debris out of the ditches and stacked it up in the fields along side for the farmers to carry off. But, there remains in that debris field caused by the tornado, especially in the mobile home park, substantial amounts of what constitutes storm water, what could constitute storm water pollution and a hazard to health. It needs to be cleaned up as thoroughly and as rapidly as possible.

Commissioner Nix: Okay.

Bill Jeffers: Before they enter our, you know, each time it rains some of them enter our waters.

Commissioner Nix: Right.

Bill Jeffers: That includes your side ditches–

President Musgrave: Would you suggest–

Bill Jeffers: –all of your county roadside ditches in that area either drain to Eagle Slough, Aiken Ditch or Kolb Ditch and are carried through state lands like the Indian–

President Musgrave: Mounds.

Bill Jeffers: –Indian Mounds State Park and directly out into the Ohio River.

Commissioner Nix: Would you be available possibly, or someone from your department to just check in with the guys this weekend out there. We’re going to start clean up on Friday, just so that we make sure that everything is....I know we might even have a few silting issues, and I’ll discuss that with Mr. Duckworth as far as cleaning those ditches out, those types of things. I didn’t know if–

Bill Jeffers: Do you still have your command center? Where would I contact? Just go out there and meet with Mr.–

President Musgrave: There will be multiple Highway vehicles there and personnel.

Commissioner Nix: And Mr. Duckworth, Mike will be there this weekend, and I am going out also.

Bill Jeffers: If he’s not immediately available, I can go to one of the vehicles and use the radio and contact Mr. Duckworth?

Commissioner Nix: Just look the situation over. I’m comfortable that we’ve done the right thing up till now–

Bill Jeffers: Sure.

Commissioner Nix: –but just to kind of monitor it.

President Musgrave: I have his cell number if you would like it.

Bill Jeffers: Okay.

Commissioner Shetler: I was wondering if it wouldn’t be advisable, perhaps even tomorrow to go out there with him and point out certain things that you think need special attention and care taken to it so that it’s done in a proactive way, rather than, you know, say after the fact.

Bill Jeffers: Right, and then have to remobilize to go out there.

Commissioner Nix: Right.

Commissioner Shetler: Right, so, I’m thinking if you could get with him tomorrow morning and somehow meet out there tomorrow sometime during the day, it might help. Also, first thing Friday morning, perhaps. Not to try and interfere with your weekend.

Bill Jeffers: Just don’t mess with my Thursday and I’ll be okay.

President Musgrave: We’re good for Thursday.

Bill Jeffers: I think that’s an excellent suggestion, and as your technical advisor, I’ll follow up on that throughout the weekend.

Commissioner Nix: Thank you very much.

Bill Jeffers: Yes, sir.

President Musgrave: Thank you. Is there any other business to come before the drainage board? I’ll entertain a motion to adjourn.

Commissioner Nix: So moved.

Commissioner Shetler: Second.

President Musgrave: All those in favor?

All Commissioners: Aye.

President Musgrave: We are adjourned.

(The meeting was adjourned at 5:04 p.m.)

         Those in Attendance:

         Cheryl Musgrave                      Bill Nix                            Tom Shetler, Jr.

         Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.                    Bill Jeffers                       Madelyn Grayson

         Fred Meyers                             Lori Meyers                     Robert Schaefer

         Keith Poff                                  Others Unidentified         Members of Media

VANDERBURGH COUNTY

DRAINAGE BOARD

Cheryl A.W. Musgrave, President

Bill Nix, Vice President

Tom Shetler, Jr., Member

Recorded and transcribed by Madelyn Grayson.