VANDERBURGH COUNTY

DRAINAGE BOARD

NOVEMBER 11, 2008

The Vanderburgh County Drainage Board met in session this 11^th day of November, 2008 at 5:35 p.m. in room 301 of the Civic Center Complex with President Troy Tornatta presiding.

President Tornatta: Good evening, Linda, serving for Bill Jeffers.

Linda Freeman: Yes, a proxy.

President Tornatta: Yes, amen, 5:35 on a Tuesday, November 11, 2008. Welcome to our Drainage Board meeting of Vanderburgh County.

President Tornatta: Approval of the previous meetings minutes?

Commissioner Nix: So moved.

Commissioner Korb: Second.

President Tornatta: So ordered.

President Tornatta: We’re going to go to the Phillips-Esche petition, I see.

Linda Freeman: Oh, well, let’s go ahead and do our, let’s go in order.

President Tornatta: Okay, you want to go in order.

Linda Freeman: Yeah.

President Tornatta: That was on the big board.

Linda Freeman: I was just getting ready.

President Tornatta: Okay, Hamilton Creek Subdivision, preliminary plan.

Linda Freeman: Yes, and this was a previously approved plan for condos. It complies with the drainage ordinance for preliminary approval, and we recommend approval on a preliminary basis, at this time, for Hamilton Creek.

Commissioner Nix: And this is just a preliminary plan?

Linda Freeman: Yes.

Commissioner Nix: This will come back to us again?

Linda Freeman: Yes.

Commissioner Nix: Move approval.

Commissioner Korb: Second.

President Tornatta: So ordered.

Linda Freeman: And then we have a Joe Nickolick petition for an obstruction approval that Madelyn has all of the paperwork on. We’re just receiving that petition.

President Tornatta: I need a motion to accept the petition.

Commissioner Korb: So moved.

Commissioner Nix: Second.

President Tornatta: So ordered.

President Tornatta: Now, the big board.

Linda Freeman: Yeah, we have the pretty pictures from the–

Unidentified: Excuse me, is there any discussion about the Hamilton Creek project?

Linda Freeman: This is just preliminary.

Unidentified: Okay.

Linda Freeman: So, they’ll have to come back for their final.

Unidentified: And when is that?

President Tornatta: I’ll tell you what, give us a minute to go through this and we’ll ask for public comment.

Unidentified: Okay.

Commissioner Nix: But, once again, it’s my understanding with a preliminary there’s really nothing we can act on. There’s nothing that will be acted on today. Correct me if I’m wrong, Commissioner, but, we can hear you’re opinion, but there’s no action to be taken today.

Unidentified: Well, you know, what we got was that, in these papers it says that the Drainage Board hearing is today, and that’s why we’re here.

Justin Schoffstall: As the Project Engineer, I would be more than happy to hear any public comments so we can address those (Inaudible).

President Tornatta: Okay, I tell you what, let’s go through this and I’ll ask for public comment. Okay?

Linda Freeman: Alright, the Phillips-Esche petition. We received four quotes for the job, and Martin Woodward Backhoe was the lowest bidder at $2,150, not the $22,000 that Bill sent in an e-mail. Which I’m sure gave you heart failure.

Commissioner Korb: This is not the same company she’s had all these issue with, is it?

Linda Freeman: I don’t know.

Commissioner Korb: I pray not.

President Tornatta: Well, it’s done.

Linda Freeman: It’s a done deal.

Commissioner Korb: Okay.

Linda Freeman: It was finished yesterday afternoon.

Commissioner Korb: Great.

Linda Freeman: So, here’s some before pictures, what the conditions were prior to the start of the job yesterday morning. You can see it was, I can understand why the gentleman had a problem with this. If you need me, I mean, if you want to stop or slow down on any of them, please just say so. That’s looking down between Paul Esche and Linda Phillips, that’s looking down through there, how nice it looks compared to what her area looked like.

President Korb: And the after pictures?

Linda Freeman: They are coming. Oh, just to let you know that we didn’t make a mess, the street was cleaned, Jerry said the sidewalk was swept and all that sort of thing. So, we didn’t leave a mess behind. This is the actual work going on, getting the erosion control mats down. We went with erosion control matting instead of the sod, because the different sod people were saying that they couldn’t guarantee the sod. So, we’re hopeful–

Commissioner Nix: Because of the time of the year, Linda?

Linda Freeman: Yeah. The erosion control mat and seeding, and you can see that the erosion control mat is stapled down around, and this is, the portion that you see there is kind of, under that gentleman’s feet is the flared end section that’s carrying the water under the road. That’s her down spout, one of her down spout pipes coming in. So, they made sure that was nice and neat. Overall all it just looks really nice.

Commissioner Nix: I’m just curious, do you know how much dirt was taken out? How many loads?

Linda Freeman: No, honestly, I don’t.

Commissioner Nix: It’s not important.

Linda Freeman: It was a quick job.

Commissioner Nix: Yeah.

Linda Freeman: They accomplished it all from approximately 7:30 to maybe 12:30-1:00.

Commissioner Nix: So, about four hours?

Linda Freeman: Quick job.

Commissioner Nix: Thank you.

Linda Freeman: I don’t know if there was any of those pictures that you wanted to see more of.

President Tornatta: Thanks for putting that together. I mean, it does give us a little look at it, especially as much time as we’ve spent on this project.

Linda Freeman: Right, you can see how bad the side on her side looks, and then the Paul Esche side is not looking too healthy there either. Then, the after product looks wonderful. So, with the rains and things we should have a good grass stand coming, hopefully. Maybe we’ll get a few more warm days and maybe we can put this one behind us.

President Tornatta: Ted, I’ve got a question. If we have an officer out there, is that something that can be done on an off time basis and then put into this contract, if we have this happen again?

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: You mean an officer (Inaudible)?

President Tornatta: Yeah, we actually had an officer out there on site.

Linda Freeman: I did contact Eric Williams on Friday prior to the start of the job, when Bill informed me that he had contacted Martin Woodward to work on it?

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Was it an on duty person?

Linda Freeman: Uh-huh, it was on duty, so just in case–

President Tornatta: I guess, what I’m suggesting is would we ever, or could we get an off duty officer to serve, and then put that in the contract, if there’s some contentious–

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Sure, absolutely.

President Tornatta: Because, I mean, we don’t, I don’t see any need why the county needs to take somebody out of the mix of protecting and serving on that side of town, especially when we want to have as many people out there as possible. Then, when we pull them to essentially be the watchdog on a matter like this.

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Sure, we could.

President Tornatta: Okay, we might think about it next time if we think that somebody–

Linda Freeman: If we get another contentious type.

President Tornatta: –is potentially going to bug a vendor–

Linda Freeman: Yeah.

President Tornatta: –then we need to address that.

Linda Freeman: Basically, the arrangements we made were that an officer arrive on the scene prior to the contractor arriving, and once everybody arrived, and if there was no problems then he left and just knew what the situation was. So, I don’t think he was there the entire day, or, you know, the entire morning that time. He kind of was just there, a preventative measure, I suppose.

President Tornatta: We might just think about that in the future, if we do that, and just bill that back as well.

Linda Freeman: We don’t have any claims.

Linda Freeman: I don’t know of any other business.

Linda Freeman: Possibly public comment?

President Tornatta: Okay, I’ll ask for that. Thank you. You did a fine job, Linda.

Linda Freeman: I wish I was in Florida though.

President Tornatta: We’ll ask for public comment. Gentlemen? State your name and address if you would please.

Robert Gossman: It’s Robert Gossman. I live at 545 Pleasantview. This is concerning the Hamilton Creek. First, for your information, I’m not trying to do anything to prevent building there. I just have certain things that are a concern to me. I attended the original meetings when that subdivision was put in, and, again, I didn’t have any objections to that, but on the original drainage hearing, the commitment was that, you know, I asked the question, drainage, because we live at the toe of that slope. We were assured no problem with drainage, it will be better than it’s ever been before. Well, I didn’t have any problems with drainage off of that, it was all heavily wooded. They started building houses in there, I immediately had a problem, contacted them, they came out, they put up a silt dam and couple of bales of straw and said, you know, the problem is that, you know, this has just been stripped away for construction, the time of year and that sort of thing. You know, when we get everything established it will be fine.

Commissioner Nix: How long ago was that, sir?

Robert Gossman: It’s been, what, three years ago, four years ago when the originals were put in? It’s continually gotten worse, to the point now if we have just a moderate rain I have a river coming down off of here, down across my side yard and backyard to the point to where it floods the crawl space of my house. The drainage off of the slope comes, obviously, it moves north off of that slope and then east. I’m kind of at the northeast corner of this. So, it all moves toward me. Mr. Vogler is here, he lives next door to me, so they get part of that also. The original drainage, they put in a retention pond, but it moved everything west. The natural drainage off of that, it doesn’t go west, it comes east. I would like to see in this plan something that some sort of positive means, whether that’s a ditch at the toe of this slope, or some sort of a berm barrier or something across there so that when, if there is a drainage problem off of there, that it takes it on east and across the road instead of flooding my house.

President Tornatta: Okay. Let’s maybe put you in contact with the architect, or the engineer, depending on who’s, you?

Justin Shoffstall: I would rather go ahead and have the public comment, if we could, and that way, I think, I can address everybody’s concerns all in one final statement.

President Tornatta: Okay. If you have any more questions, if you would get in contact with him, and then what we can do is, if you don’t feel that your problem is resolved, then we can have Linda Freeman or Bill Jeffers go out there and take a look at the problem, see if we can address it from a hands on point of view.

Robert Gossman: Okay. I don’t know if there are any other comments, but thank you.

President Tornatta: Okay. Thank you.

Ron Talley: I was here just to see what was happening. I think what I have could be settled by, you know, just talking to someone (Inaudible) this meeting.

President Tornatta: Okay.

Ron Talley: (Inaudible) preliminary thing. I would just like to talk to them.

President Tornatta: Okay.

Ron Talley: It’s your call.

President Tornatta: We’ll let this gentleman come up here and talk, and then if you have any other questions, maybe he can address those.

Ron Talley: Okay, and I hadn’t (Inaudible).

President Tornatta: Okay, thank you.

Justin Shoffstall: Justin Shoffstall with Easley Engineering. Just to give you a brief synopsis, the original drainage plan and the original rezoning work was done back in 1999 under the original owners. Several years ago they, for whatever reasons, went through bankruptcy, went defunct, the property was sold at a Sheriff’s tax sale several years ago, was purchased by an Indianapolis Developer called Pramco, and within just the past two and half months Esquire Properties, LLC, one of the major partners on that being Bruce Miller, who has done developments in southern Indiana, Warrick County, Vanderburgh County, has purchased this property to take this over. Because, originally, in ‘99, we were following the same drainage plan that was filed and approved back in 1999. With Mr. Gossman’s and Mr. Vogler’s comments, Mr. Gossman is here on the very corner of Petersburg and Greendale, and it is correct that pretty much all of this property is draining down this direction. Most of it is being collected by the storm water detention basin, but the original plans did call for, and still call for today, that the reshape and revegetation of the existing ditch to capture storm water and channel the existing 36 inch RCP. That’s along this entire joint property line on Greenbriar Hills, which is that lower end subdivision, and directing it here, because we do have enough fall to direct that water here to the 36 inch pipe, that goes into Greenbriar Hills, Pleasantview, and then slowly gets it way towards Little Pigeon Creek. We are, one of the benefits on this as far as the rezoning that you’ll be hearing next week, if we are granted primary approval this Thursday by the Area Plan Commission, the Commissioners will hear this for rezoning as well, because we are rezoning it from the current R-3 with a UDC to amend the UDC to allow for single family residential homes, not to exceed that original count that was in the UDC rezoning of 45 condominiums or more. With a subdivision, one of the things as you may or may not be aware, with a subdivision all the drainage plan improvements have to have a letter of credit to ensure those are constructed before it’s accepted for maintenance by the county. Unlike, with the condos, they can say they can do it, and if they don’t do it, it will be one of those things that then the property owners will have to come forward, petition through the Vanderburgh County Surveyor’s office, come before you as the Commissioners to have the problem corrected. With this it’s the developer is forced to put the money forward, construct the ditch, and put in the drainage systems as required.

Commissioner Korb: So, what does that do to resolve this situation that these two gentleman have come forward with?

Justin Schoffstall: As far as they are downhill, we would be intercepting this water and channeling it away from their rear yards, because they are on the toe of the slope quite a bit. If nothing was ever built here, they would still have some sort of drainage problem, unless this ditch was put in, because just the natural slope and the flow of the land itself is approximately 60 plus acres that is just heading directly into these backyards. The backyards themselves slope down towards the homes, on the majority of these.

Commissioner Korb: But, essentially, what they’ve told us is, prior to construction of new development, they did not have any issues or problems.

Justin Shoffstall: It probably was not as prominent, because it was the majority woodlands and everything else. Once you start doing development with the hard surface improvements–

Commissioner Korb: Okay.

Justin Shoffstall: –you are going to see more hard surface water runoff.

Commissioner Korb: Sure.

Justin Shoffstall: If the original owner and developer had installed the ditch, you probably wouldn’t have this situation arising today. If they had installed it correctly as per the original plans. Unfortunately, they did not.

Commissioner Korb: So, the new owners of the property are willing to come in and correct the situation?

Justin Shoffstall: That is correct, and it is shown on the preliminary plan for the primary approval. One of the things we were hoping to have, at least by this time, was final street and drainage plans, there’s just a few other issues, and the reason why we held that back was because I know Ted’s had a lot on his plate, and since, oh, June or so there was a few items regarding street plans, regarding encroachments and hold harmless agreements that we want to get addressed in regards to the existing boulevard entrance and a retaining wall around one of the cul-de-sacs.

Commissioner Korb: Are they willing to put those assurances in writing as part of their plan?

Justin Shoffstall: Um.

Commissioner Korb: To address the drainage issue here?

Justin Shoffstall: Yeah, I mean, it’s shown on the plans itself. It’s part of the plan in general.

Commissioner Nix: Just curious, is there a way, and, I guess, the developer is not here today, so, you’re speaking on behalf of them, that you could meet these gentlemen out there and basically walk them through what that plan is?

Justin Shoffstall: Yeah, that’s not a problem.

Commissioner Nix: I think, you know, drawings are, they are what they are–

Justin Shoffstall: Right.

Commissioner Nix: –but, I mean, if you could kind of map out what you’re planning on doing, then, of course, you’ll have to adhere to that, you know, when this is installed. I don’t know if that would help you guys at all, as far as actually meeting with you all out there and just kind of walking through what basically the interpretation of that plan is, as to what you’re going to do there.

Commissioner Korb: Yeah, and I don’t mean to be offensive when I say this, but I’m not impressed with the drawing. You know, these guys have been suffering through quite a bit of issues for the past several years, I would need to see something in writing before I would be able to vote yes at the rezoning. So, I’m just letting you know that right up front.

Commissioner Nix: I guess, we’ve got two issues, one is the drainage, which is what we’re addressing here, and then rezoning issues.

Commissioner Korb: Yep.

Justin Shoffstall: The rezoning would be next week, as far as with what you hear.

Commissioner Nix: But, the drainage isn’t coming until after, sometime after that, the final drainage plan?

Justin Shoffstall: Yeah, because what this has been filed as is a joint rezoning and subdivision, because right now if the rezoning, for your information, the rezoning is denied, simply because of the drainage, then we can go ahead and continue to build as condos with the existing drainage plan and without having it as a subdivision–

Commissioner Nix: Well–

Justin Shoffstall: –because subdivision would depend upon–

Commissioner Nix: –I don’t want to make it hard up here, but, I mean, we always try to keep those two items completely separate, whether it’s a rezoning issue or a drainage issue, and address each one of them individually. I’ve never been one to say I’m not going to allow this to happen because I’m not happy with the drainage, because we have the opportunity to address that when it comes up.

Justin Shoffstall: Right, and as far as, I mean, we do have it in writing as far as where these issues will have to be addressed, as far as to ensure that that off site water is not just sheet flowing onto them and is part of the preliminary plan that is before you for approval, and stating that this water would have to be collected and channeled away from these homes. So, even with that, with the approval, if it’s not constructed that way, which I really, sincerely do not believe that that would be the case, because I know the developer and the projects that he’s done here in Vanderburgh County and Warrick County for over 20 years.

President Tornatta: Of course, if he does have a problem, then they can always come back and talk to the Surveyor, and get something else done about it.

Commissioner Korb: My biggest issue is, I just want it fixed. I’m not trying to be a jerk, but, you know, boy, every time a small person comes up against government or something else, it’s a chore. It really is. Something like this, if it’s been on-going, they try to make appeals, and they’ve fallen on deaf ears, I’m thrilled you’re excited about your developer, I hope it really works out and has a Disney ending, but if it doesn’t then, you know, it’s something that we have to address.

Justin Shoffstall: I would like to reiterate too that my client–

Commissioner Korb: Happy ending.

Justin Shoffstall:– my client, the current owner who has just purchased this within the past two months–

Commissioner Korb: Sure.

Justin Shoffstall: – just closed on the property, did not create these problems.

Commissioner Korb: Right.

Justin Shoffstall: He is purchasing something that has already been started, and will be finishing it out in order to provide the type of product that has typically, that he has put out. These type of situations are not something that he encounters, creates, and has not been the case.

Commissioner Nix: I just think there’s some peace of mind if they can actually see what you’re going to do.

Justin Shoffstall: Right.

Commissioner Nix: It’s on the drawings, and it gets put in that way–

Commissioner Korb: It’s worth a lot.

Linda Freeman: And, now that that’s been brought to our attention too, then I’ll make sure that Bill’s aware of it, and see that we communicate with these gentlemen also.

Commissioner Korb: That would be great. Thanks.

Justin Shoffstall: That was part of the original communications that we had with Mr. Jeffers, dating all the way back to May and June, whenever we first started working on this, when our client was doing his due diligence prior to closing on the property.

Commissioner Korb: Sure.

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Justin, you mentioned my plate, I’m unaware of any specific assignment we have, or document we have to review specifically with regard to this subdivision. If I am mistaken, you need to refresh my recollection, and you call me tomorrow and tell me. Because, generally, the more I have on my plate, the quicker I get things done.

Justin Shoffstall: And I was talking to John Stoll about that too. So, he mentioned that he would probably do a reminder e-mail as well.

Commissioner Korb: Super. Thank you.

Justin Shoffstall: Thank you.

President Tornatta: Any other public comment?

Commissioner Korb: Motion to adjourn.

Commissioner Nix: Second.

President Tornatta: So ordered.

Those in Attendance:

Troy Tornatta                            Bill Nix                                      Jeff Korb

Linda Freeman                         Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.          Madelyn Grayson

Ron Gossman                          Ron Talley                                Justin Shoffstall

Others Unidentified                   Members of Media

VANDERBURGH COUNTY

DRAINAGE BOARD

Troy Tornatta, President

Bill Nix, Vice President

Jeff Korb, Member

(Recorded and transcribed by Madelyn Grayson.)