VANDERBURGH COUNTY

DRAINAGE BOARD

MAY 24, 2005

The Vanderburgh County Drainage Board met in session this 24^th day of May, 2005 at 4:41 p.m. in room 301 of the Civic Center Complex with President Cheryl Musgrave presiding.

President Musgrave: Call to order Vanderburgh County Drainage Board meeting for May 24^th.

President Musgrave: Do I hear a motion to approve the minutes of the previous meeting?

Commissioner Crouch: So moved.

Commissioner Nix: Second.

President Musgrave: All those in favor?

All Commissioners: Aye.

President Musgrave: And the motion carries.

President Musgrave: We have drainage plans, Wynnfield Subdivision, Section Two, final plan. Is there anyone here to speak to this? Does the Surveyor have any comments? I see no one in the audience prepared to speak to this.

Bill Jeffers: Mr. McClellan, did you want to make a request regarding Wynnfield, Section Two, final plan? This would be Mr. Lee McClellan from Morley and Associates, the design engineer for the project.

Lee McClellan: Yes, as Bill said, Lee McClellan with Morley and Associates. Right now many of the issues that involve the completion of the phase two, or section two of Wynnfield drainage plans involves some deficiencies in the downstream structures, swales and ditches, etcetera in section one, which lies downstream. So, in essence, section two drains down through section one. We had a meeting this afternoon with Mr. Railey and Mr. Atkinson, his attorney, and, basically, what Scott would like to do, and Jerry is supposed to be here, but evidently he’s not, he was supposed to ask on behalf of Mr. Railey, since Mr. Jeffers has no problems with the sizing or the location of the underground storm drainage system, it all involves open swales, erosion control issues, if he could get approval to commence the installation of his underground storm sewer system. This would then allow him to move forward on his roads, which he did receive approval this night from this board, or the County Commissioner board, excuse me, not the Drainage Board, to commence with those roadway plans. This will give us time to assess the downstream deficiencies, because we are going to have to send a survey crew out in the field, collect as-built data, plot it up and analyze it as to what effect the upstream drainage has on the downstream system, and then address those concerns to Mr. Jeffers between now and the next drainage board, which would be on, let’s see, the fourth Tuesday of June.

President Musgrave: So, is your–

Bill Jeffers: Pardon me, so, in essence what Mr. McClellan is requesting on behalf of the developer, Scott Railey, and Mr. Atkinson was here earlier, but had to leave for another appointment and spoke with me in the hall, is your permission to go ahead and install the storm water pipes shown on the street plans that the County Commissioners approved earlier this afternoon, at the, you approved those on the recommendation of the County Engineer, Mr. Stoll. I have no problem with that, so long as the pipes that are installed in phase two of Wynnfield Subdivision are those pipes installed as designed and shown on the approved plans, and only those pipes that are shown on the approved plans.

President Musgrave: Do I hear a motion?

Commissioner Nix: Let me make sure I’m clear. You just want to make sure it’s put in as per plans and specifications?

Bill Jeffers: That the plans and specifications that you approved on the recommendation of Mr. Stoll earlier this afternoon, those plans.

Commissioner Nix: Okay, is there a reason why they wouldn’t be? I’m just curious.

Bill Jeffers: There may be some pipes outside of the street plans that Mr. Railey, or his contractor, might confuse with those you’re granting approval for. There may be some pipes over here somewhere that’s not shown on the street plans. I’m not talking about those pipes.

Commissioner Nix: Okay.

Bill Jeffers: I’m talking about the one’s that are shown on the approved street plans only.

Commissioner Nix: I move we approve.

Commissioner Crouch: Second.

President Musgrave: All those in favor?

All Commissioners: Aye.

President Musgrave: Motion carries. Thank you, sir.

Lee McClellan: Thank you.

Bill Jeffers: Then they will return one month from tonight for the final plan for the rest of the drainage project.

President Musgrave: We move now to Windham Hill Subdivision, Section Three, final plan.

Bill Jeffers: Mr. McClellan is also the design engineer for Windham Hill Subdivision, Section Three, which is shown on the screen. It’s west of Windham Hill, Section Two. It’s across Green River Road from Wynnfield Subdivision that we just discussed. It’s north of Green River Estates, which was developed in the 80's and 90's. The plan presented by Mr. McClellan, certified by him as the design engineer, comports with the drainage ordinance, and the County Surveyor recommends approval of that plan.

President Musgrave: Is there anyone here to speak to this? I see no one.

Commissioner Nix: Move approval.

Commissioner Crouch: Second.

President Musgrave: All those in favor?

All Commissioners: Aye.

President Musgrave: Motion carries.

Lee McClellan: Thank you.

President Musgrave: Thank you.

President Musgrave: We move to Heritage Park Subdivision, Section Two, final plan.

Bill Jeffers: This is for Bill. Heritage Park Subdivision will be coming up on the screen shortly, it’s Section Two. It’s located at Green River Road and Lynch Road. It’s north of Schnuck’s Plaza. It was rezoned at the last Area Plan, or the plat was considered at the last Area Plan Commission meeting. It contains a long, narrow borrow pit that was excavated by the developer to acquire fill for the building sites prior to any submittal of a plan, a drainage plan. It, the borrow was used for section one. The County Surveyor, nor the County Engineer, nor the Drainage Board any had opportunity to review or recommend or approve that borrow pit. However, it does exist. It’s a large borrow pit, it fills with water, it will become a lake whether we approve the plan or not. It has unstable side slopes in it’s current condition that are caused by a soil condition that was identified in this report by Hansen Testing, an engineering company who is a geo-technical engineering investigation firm. This report was compiled and certified by Kent Lautner, professional engineer, an agent for Hansen Testing, outlining, in detail, the soil conditions that affected the soil failure in the embankments of that borrow pit, and recommending specific procedures for stabilizing those embankments. Since everything else regarding the plan substantially comports with the drainage ordinance, and because the design engineer here before you tonight, Mr. Dave True, has taken great pains to show on the plans exactly how they intend to repair the embankments, establishing 4:1 side slopes above the pool elevation, and 5:1 side slopes below the pool elevation, with soil that they’re going to move into place and compact in accordance with AASHTO standards to stabilize this dirt. They’re also establishing a ten foot wide safety ledge so that adjacent neighbors if they were to enjoy the facility and accidentally wade into the water would have a safety ledge two feet below the surface. We believe that adequately addresses the safety concerns of the residential, the proximity of the residential properties to the south. I have had a discussion recently with Mr. Andy Spurling representing Spurling Development, and he said he has contacted a goodly number of the residents of the apartments to the south and neither he nor other representatives of Spurling Development, nor the residents with whom he spoke object to the lake being, becoming a permanent facility in accordance with these plans.

President Musgrave: But, we have nothing in writing for the record?

Bill Jeffers: We have nothing in writing to that effect, only a phone call yesterday. I told Mr. Spurling that he and his apartment residents were free to come tonight and express their concerns or their comments or inquiries at the board meeting, and he said that if there were any they would be here.

President Musgrave: And they were notified?

Bill Jeffers: By Mr. Spurling. Based on the fact that I did have previous concerns about the stability of these embankments, and specifically that we would be, that I would be recommending and you would be approving on my recommendation the use of this borrow pit as a detention facility, I wanted to make it perfectly clear that the borrow pit pre-existed any review or submittal of the plan. That I believe that the design engineer has taken adequate precautions to stabilize the bank and embankments in accordance with this, with the recommendations found in this certified report. So, therefore, I believe that, or I will simply say that I recommend the plan for approval.

President Musgrave: Is there anyone here to speak to this matter? Is there a motion?

Commissioner Nix: Move approval.

Commissioner Crouch: Second.

President Musgrave: All those in favor?

Commissioner Nix: Aye.

Commissioner Crouch: Aye.

President Musgrave: I oppose it. Motion carries.

President Musgrave: We move now to Heritage Park Subdivision, Section Two, final plan.

Bill Jeffers: William S. Hirsch Subdivision? We just finished Heritage Park, I believe.

President Musgrave: So sorry.

Bill Jeffers: Okay, no problem.

President Musgrave: We could do it again though.

Bill Jeffers: We could. Apparently I spoke so long we....okay, this is a preliminary plan for William S. Hirsch Subdivision, Section Two. Section One, if you’ll look at your photograph is the kind of oddball shaped square down at the bottom left hand corner. That has already received approval on the condition that this phase, section two, would compensate for the shortage in detention of storm water, the shortfall that occurred in section one. The plan does exactly that, it compensates for the shortfall, thereby complying with your earlier condition. Approval of this preliminary plan will allow this subdivision to go forward to Area Plan Commission on the second Thursday of June for primary plat approval. I’ve had a lengthy discussion with Mr. James Morley, Jr., who’s standing here before you from Morley and Associates, the design engineer. The plan comports with the drainage ordinance, and the County Surveyor recommends approval.

President Musgrave: Is there anyone in the audience to speak to the William Hirsch Subdivision, Section Two, preliminary plan? I see no one. Is there a motion?

Commissioner Nix: Motion to approve.

Commissioner Crouch: Second.

President Musgrave: All those in favor?

All Commissioners: Aye.

President Musgrave: Mr. Jeffers, on a side matter, is this near the photograph of the weeds that I sent to you?

Bill Jeffers: The weeds?

President Musgrave: Do you recall the photograph–

Bill Jeffers: Oh, yes, Ma’am. This actually right now is an agricultural farm field just north of Sam’s Club.

President Musgrave: Okay, that is near–

Bill Jeffers: Okay, and the weed, the picture of the weeds you sent to me is a piece of property that I believe may be still owned by the Hirsch–

President Musgrave: Trust?

Bill Jeffers: –Hirsch Trust, but on the south side of Sam’s, across the street from Virginia Street.

President Musgrave: Well, I understand that the process has begun to force the cutting of those weeds, but I wish Mr., somebody from Hirsch was here today.

Bill Jeffers: Mr. Hirsch, one of the Mr. Hirsch’s is here in the audience tonight.

President Musgrave: Okay.

Jim Morley, Jr. : Are you talking about the weeds right behind like the Home Depot?

President Musgrave: Yes.

Bill Jeffers: Yes, sir.

Jim Morley, Jr. : I believe that’s owned by Wal-Mart.

Bill Jeffers: Did Mr. Hirsch sell that to Wal-Mart? Is that correct?

Mr. Hirsch: That was sold to Wal-Mart.

Jim Morley, Jr. : I know that because we looked at that piece of ground when we were considering sites.

Bill Jeffers: That almost became a part of Glass Subdivision.

Jim Morley, Jr. : Yeah, but, I think–

Bill Jeffers: But, then it was like lot eight, but then it was deleted from that subdivision and I thought it remained a part of the Hirsch Trust.

Jim Morley, Jr. : It’s, at least of a year ago or so it was owned by Wal-Mart, because we contacted them when we were looking for an office location. That’s the only reason I know who owns it.

President Musgrave: Could I have your card?

Jim Morley, Jr. : Yeah.

President Musgrave: Thanks.

Bill Jeffers: I’m sorry, Madam Chairman, Chairlady, my information was apparently incorrect. I thought it still belonged to the Hirsch Trust.

President Musgrave: Well, I’ve been contacted by the original complainer, and he’s going to get a letter from many of the property owners around there. You know, it would be nice if the right individual got that letter.

Bill Jeffers: Yes, it would. It would surprise me if Wal-Mart , if they do own it, that they would not readily–

President Musgrave: Cut it.

Bill Jeffers: –denude it of weeds, because they keep their detention basin perfectly manicured. They may be unaware that they are responsible for that patch of weeds.

Jim Morley, Jr. : When I say Wal-Mart, I mean Sam’s Club.

Bill Jeffers: Whoever.

Jim Morley, Jr. : Yeah.

Bill Jeffers: Walden Enterprises.

Jim Morley, Jr. : They’ve got two different land divisions, a land division in which it’s subdivided ground, and a land division of parcelized ground. It falls under their parcelized ground land division.

President Musgrave: It’s under the parcelized. Okay, somebody may contact you to find out exactly where that is, okay?

Jim Morley, Jr. : Okay, I don’t know if I can remember that or not.

President Musgrave: Well, give it a stab.

Jim Morley, Jr. : I’m pretty sure it’s the Wal-Mart Corporation that owns that.

President Musgrave: Okay, now we did vote on William Hirsch?

Bill Jeffers: Thank you, Jim.

President Musgrave: Yes, we did. Are there other drainage plans?

Bill Jeffers: There are no others. Mr. Hirsch, I apologize for thinking that was your patch of weeds. Apparently–

Mr. Hirsch: We’ll take it back and start over.

Bill Jeffers: I’d take it back for ten dollars and cost.

President Musgrave: We move now to discussion of Gillies, did I say that right?

Commissioner Crouch: Gillies.

President Musgrave: Gillies, Gillies Oak Meadow Condominium issue.

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Does anybody have the copy of the letter? I didn’t know that this was going to be discussed today. Does anybody have a copy of my letter? Do you have a copy of the letter I sent you?

Commissioner Crouch: I don’t think I remember a letter.

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: I sent all three, I mean, I sent it to all the Commissioners, I sent it to B.J., I sent it to you. It was my opinion regarding this matter.

Bill Jeffers: Oh, I’m sorry, I haven’t seen that.

President Musgrave: No, it was just the last, a couple of days ago. Hold on a minute.

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: I asked that it be reviewed, and then to give me any thoughts that you had on it. I did hear from Cheryl. I can pretty much remember this though without having the letter here. That would just help me to be more explicit. I’ll start with the bottom line, Mr. Gillies. We believe that there’s nothing the county can do for you. Now, having said that, I’ll go back and tell you why that is my opinion. From looking at the drawings that were shown to me by the County Surveyor, and showing where the retention lake should be, and where the ditch goes through, and where your building is to the east of the ditch and where there are....yeah, thank you. I may not need it, I remember pretty well what I do, but thank you, it will be nice to have that handy. There was a site plan approval given for Mr. Bauer, you’re correct, he developed that to put in those condos, and he was to put in a retention lake, and he was to put in the ditch that you lie, I believe, east of, and then the drainage that you’re complaining about is from the condos that lie southwest of you and the ditch. They drain into the ditch, the ditch runs over, the water comes down to your building, maybe hits your electrical or whatever unit that you have outside and causes whatever other problems that you face. The plan that was approved by the Area Plan Commission, the site plan did have on it that the lake, the detention lake should be installed, and further that the ditch should be constructed running north, approximately north-south across the property with you being west of the ditch, and the other properties in question lieing kind of southeast of the ditch. Mr. Bauer apparently constructed the ditch, from the information that’s available to me, and he did not construct the detention lake. The permit, thank you, the permit that was granted was, let me see if I can find the date for the permit, I know I had it in here, yeah, it was approved by the Plan Commission on August 9, 1994. At that time the county ordinance in effect for drainage really only addressed two issues, one being pipes, and the other one being retention lakes. It did not address ditches, and it gave no remedy to anybody in the county that could be exercised by the County Commissioners for any other matter. So, that ordinance that was then in effect, really didn’t have any teeth in it, so far as violations of the ordinance are concerned. The construction was done pursuant to a permit, which was in effect prior to the ordinance being changed. Now, the ordinance was changed in 1994. The same ordinance was in effect from at least 1986 to 1994. The 1994 ordinance is replete with provisions allowing the county....now, I should back up just another second, what’s happened, I think, there’s been no complaints from the time this was done back in 1994, apparently, at least we’re not aware of any for a number of years. Then your complaint surfaced, whenever it did, and I apologize, Mr. Gillies, that I don’t know exactly when that was, but it’s fairly recent as time goes by compared to the fact that it was installed in 1994. What has happened in the meantime, I’m told, I’ve never seen it, but I’m told that it has filled with debris, it has folded in on itself from the dirt on the sides, the top of the ditch is falling in to it, limbs and trees and sticks and other brush are in the ditch, which are causing the ditch not to carry the water that it was designed to carry from the homeowners who live southeast of you, and accordingly since it won’t carry the water it’s overflowing the banks to the east and flowing down on your property. What’s needed to get your problem solved, is for the homeowners, lying southeast of you, either through their condominium association, or other homeowners association, and I don’t have any knowledge of what kind of associations there are there, I’m saying either individually or through their associations, they are responsible for maintaining that ditch, because it runs across their property. You have a, I’m not going to be your lawyer, because I’m an attorney for the County Commissioners, but I suggest if you contacted your attorney, you would be advised that you have a good action against those owners to get this problem cured, but you don’t have, you’ve asked the county to help you and we can’t. There is nothing in effect that allows us to do that. Had this been developed after the adoption of the new ordinance by the county, then, you know, we would be very happy, and we always do, we always do anything we can to enforce any county residents rights, if we have the right to do that. It’s my opinion that we don’t have in this particular case. That doesn’t mean that you don’t have rights, and you certainly do, and there is a way, through civil law, that you can exercise those rights, but not at, in my opinion, county expense. So, that’s pretty much my opinion, and I’m, of course, pleased to answer any questions you have. I’ll tell you that my opinion is based on information provided to me by the County Surveyor, and a research of the applicable law.

Don Gillies: Okay. Excuse me, first of all that ditch was there in 1988, it was before those....that was there when the bank owned those properties. In fact, the bank put it there. Okay? Because of the problem of the water coming down the hill. Okay? At that time, when the Bauer, Mr. Bauer bought the properties, we went to him and his people, I guess it was Morley and Associates were the one’s–

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: They did draw the plan, yes.

Don Gillies: Yes, sir, and made them aware of our concerns, and the problem that we could see coming, because they were going to have to change elevations in some of the land. So, not only did we get the water, the rainwater, we got water from inground sprinkling systems, and also the elevation also changed the speed of which that water came down, okay. So, this was all done prior to even, I think, Mr. Bauer even submitting plans, that we had sat down with him and said, look, we are very concerned about, okay. The, at that time, we went to Mr. Wathen, who at that time, I guess, was in charge, and, Jim, maybe you can help me, they had two groups, one was mud coming down, the other was water coming down.

Bill Jeffers: He was with the Soil and Water Conservation District at that time.

Don Gillies: Yeah. He did have the authority, and exercised that authority to tell Bauer Homes that that was not acceptable and it needed to be cleaned. He gave him a time period in which to do that. They did something, it wasn’t right, but they did something. Mr. Wathen came back to us and said we’re going to see how this works. This is what we’ve done. Okay? There was an authoritarian figure there, or had an authority to do something, I guess, I would like to know where that authority went? Because it was with the county.

Bill Jeffers: Mr. Wathen’s authority with the Soil and Water Conservation District lies with a memorandum of agreement that the Soil and Water Conservation District has with the Indiana Department of Natural Resources and the Indiana Department of Environmental Management. Since 1992, the Soil and Water Conservation District has acted as an agent to the two state agencies–

Don Gillies: Uh-huh.

Bill Jeffers: –with regard to what we call Rule Five, which is a state, Indiana administrative act that gives those three, those two state agencies and the Soil and Water Conservation District, it gives them jurisdiction over erosion and sediment issues–

Don Gillies: Uh-huh.

Bill Jeffers: –that were affecting you during a construction project, where erosion from upstream caused sedimentation to come down on to your property.

Don Gillies: Uh-huh.

Bill Jeffers: An active construction site. It’s not a county jurisdiction.

Don Gillies: Okay. Well, then does that authority still exist with them? That they have charge and they can–

Bill Jeffers: It exists so long as the permit issued, it’s called an NPDES permit, issued by the Indiana Department of Environmental Management. So long as that permit is active, and they are generally active for around five years or so, the Soil and Water Conservation District still has the authority to come make inspections with regard to erosion and sedimentation from a construction site that is acting under that permit.

Don Gillies: Okay.

Bill Jeffers: I believe, most likely that that permit has been terminated because the project has been over for some time. So, the only other erosion and sediment control issue would be under the local erosion and sediment control ordinance.

Don Gillies: Which is?

Bill Jeffers: Three pages long and enforced by the County Engineer.

Don Gillies: The County Engineer?

Bill Jeffers: With regard to erosion and sediment.

Don Gillies: Uh-huh.

Bill Jeffers: Not necessarily storm water drainage. That would mean that the erosion would have to be occurring on the property that’s the subject of your complaint, and that that erosion was generating sediment that’s carried across the line and deposited on your property.

Don Gillies: Well, yeah, that’s still coming down at one end. It still is. It’s washing right down the hill.

Bill Jeffers: And you could–

Don Gillies: And that’s at the apex–

Bill Jeffers: –again contact Mr. Wathen, who now works for the County Engineer who enforces that code locally.

Don Gillies: Uh-huh.

Bill Jeffers: And you could contact him at 435-5774, and ask him to come inspect your site once again.

Don Gillies: Okay.

President Musgrave: Well, at least–

Bill Jeffers: To determine–

President Musgrave: Go ahead.

Bill Jeffers: To determine whether a violation exists under the local code.

President Musgrave: I want to apologize for you hearing all of this bad news standing at a podium. I had hoped that there would have been time for a phone call to have been made, but I see that we did not have that opportunity. So, I apologize for making you stand here and hear this.

Don Gillies: That’s not a problem. I’ve been standing since 1970, or 1993 trying to get this thing solved.

President Musgrave: Well, it looks like you have one more possible avenue, but that this board cannot help you in the way that you had hoped.

Don Gillies: Uh-huh. Okay. Well, I thank you for the opportunity to at least come and talk to you.

President Musgrave: Thank you for coming.

Don Gillies: Appreciate the help, the comments, the concern.

Commissioner Nix: Did you get Mr. Wathen’s number?

Don Gillies: I’m sorry?

Commissioner Nix: Did you get Mr. Wathen’s number

Don Gillies: Yeah, I know Mr. Wathen, yes. I’ll go see him. I will reinvestigate with an attorney. I’ve done that once, and it got into a letter writing campaign, and that was a lot of costly letter writing and it didn’t really go anywhere.

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: To assist you with that, I will write you, or by e-mail, I see you have an e-mail address, I’m going to send you a copy of my opinion, so that you will have the basis for what I’m standing by. You can show that to your attorney, and I’ll be delighted to talk to him if he has other thoughts.

Don Gillies: Okay.

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Now, none of us are omniscient, and it may be that I’ve overlooked something here. I don’t think so, but I would be happy to talk to your lawyer.

Don Gillies: Okay, thank you.

President Musgrave: Thank you.

Don Gillies: Thank you all very much.

President Musgrave: We move now to claims, Mr. Jeffers.

Bill Jeffers: We have here in this folder a couple of claims for maintenance work that’s been accomplished thus far in 2005. The claims are in order, and the County Surveyor recommends that they be approved for payment.

President Musgrave: Do I hear a motion?

Commissioner Nix: Move approval.

Commissioner Crouch: Second.

President Musgrave: All those in favor?

All Commissioners: Aye.

President Musgrave: Motion carries.

President Musgrave: Are there any contracts?

Bill Jeffers: There are some contracts, which your Recording Secretary has in a folder.

Commissioner Crouch: We can stamp those.

Bill Jeffers: The contracts are in order, therefore, work to be performed in 2005 by the maintenance contractors that were approved by you in March.

President Musgrave: Do I hear a motion?

Commissioner Nix: Move approval.

Commissioner Crouch: Second.

President Musgrave: All those in favor?

All Commissioners: Aye.

President Musgrave: The motion carries.

President Musgrave: Are there encroachment agreements?

Bill Jeffers: No encroachment agreements at this time.

President Musgrave: Easement dedications?

Bill Jeffers: No easement dedications at this time.

President Musgrave: Are there other persons wishing to address the board? I see none.

President Musgrave: Is there any discussion from the board?

Bill Jeffers: Well, I’m not a member of the board, but I would strongly encourage the board to move forward with the proposed, the County Surveyor proposed some amended language for the drainage ordinance to address testing of flexible pipe. It’s languished for some time while we’ve worked on some other, more important issues, while you’ve worked on more important issues, through all these maintenance contracts and so forth that’s occupied the first quarter of the year. But, at this time I would like to pressure you to move forward with that language to put it into legal jargon and take it to the County Commissioners for a hearing, because there is a goodly amount of plastic pipe, and other types of flexible pipe that are being installed in Vanderburgh County with no meaningful testing, and it’s resulting in the potential for a good deal of pipe repair at the expense of the county in the long run.

President Musgrave: What is the pleasure of the board?

Commissioner Nix: Is there, when you say testing, are you wanting to do something local here? Or are you talking about an industry standard that you want to look at? Some kind of a bar or a datum to meet? What are you thinking about that?

Bill Jeffers: Well, basically, the language would, if inserted into, as amendments into the drainage code would require that all flexible pipes, such as high density polyethelene pipe, or corrugated metal pipe, after say 30 to 60 days after installation it would have to be mandrel tested. The developer or his contractor would hire a local testing agency, or a local testing firm to drag a mandrel through the pipe to make it sure it hadn’t deflected unreasonably.

Commissioner Nix: I guess, the concern I have is that if we have a concern before they put it in, should we not be looking at that versus after the fact?

Bill Jeffers: There is language in the ordinance that requires the contractor to notify the County Engineer 24 hours in advance of putting the pipe in the ground. But, customarily the County Engineer has not had the manpower or the time to–

Commissioner Nix: But, I guess, you know, if you say a mandrel test at 60 days, a lot of times there’s a lot of things that cover this, you know, there’s things that go on that really impede a project–

Bill Jeffers: If they had to dig it back up?

Commissioner Nix: Exactly. I mean, wouldn’t we be better off if we have a concern about a specific type of pipe, PVC, polypropelene, or whatever, that we just say we don’t want you to use it, or you can’t use it.

Bill Jeffers: We tried that when we wrote the ordinance in 1994. We tried to eliminate flexible pipe and use only rigid pipe, and these chambers had 60 to 70 people from the plastic industry at every hearing, and it was quite a dog and pony show.

Commissioner Nix: I guess, my question is how many mandrel tests that you do now fail with this type of pipe? What percentage? Just a round number.

Bill Jeffers: A goodly percentage would fail. I mean, you saw pictures of a pipe I believe out on the west side at a project, and those pictures were brought in here recently by Pat Seib, and they were just talking about cover on the pipe, I believe, but if you looked at those pictures closely the pipe was only 100 feet long and wasn’t straight from one end to the other. That was a 36 inch pipe.

Commissioner Nix: So, your recommendation would be, your proposal would be, an ordinance would be to do what now? So, I understand.

Bill Jeffers: I could forward you, I’m sorry I didn’t bring it with me, but I had previously forwarded the information to the board, and, basically, all pipe less than 36 inches in diameter would have to have a mandrel pulled through it. A mandrel, as you know, measures the acceptance, it’s either a go or no go situation. If it doesn’t go, that means the pipe has been deflected by five percent or more, indicating potential pipe failure. There’s many pipes that we’ve found, both John Stoll and myself have inspected personally, where the deflection has been so severe, that the pipe has totally failed. What we do now is we collect two dollars a lineal foot for a pipe outside the right-of-way, and put it in an escrow account, kind of as an insurance policy for any pipe failures, but when we contemplated that cost, we were thinking in terms of well laid pipe, and the eventuality of rare failures, there would be enough money to cover that over the next 25 to 30 years.

President Musgrave: Could I ask that we continue our discussion of this at the next meeting, and perhaps the two of you can flesh out the discussion at that time?

Bill Jeffers: Well, what we might do, since both of us probably understand the issue in depth, is just for Mr. Nix and myself to get together with John Stoll and discuss it, bring back a recommendation to the rest of the board.

Commissioner Crouch: And perhaps get that recommendation to the County Attorney also.

President Musgrave: In advance.

Bill Jeffers: Yes, Ma’am.

President Musgrave: Do I hear that in the form of a motion?

Commissioner Nix: So moved.

Commissioner Crouch: Second.

President Musgrave: All those in favor?

All Commissioners: Aye.

President Musgrave: Motion carries.

Commissioner Crouch: Motion to adjourn?

Commissioner Nix: Motion to adjourn.

President Musgrave: Second. All those in favor?

All Commissioners: Aye.

President Musgrave: Motion carries.

(The meeting was adjourned at 5:24 p.m.)

         Those in Attendance:

         Cheryl Musgrave                      Bill Nix                            Suzanne Crouch

         Bill Jeffers                                 Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.          Madelyn Grayson

         Lee McClellan                           Dave True                       Don Gillies

         Jim Morley, Jr.                          Mr. Hirsch                       Others Unidentified

         Members of Media

VANDERBURGH COUNTY

DRAINAGE BOARD

Cheryl A.W. Musgrave, President

Bill Nix, Vice President

Suzanne M. Crouch, Member

Recorded and transcribed by Madelyn Grayson.