VANDERBURGH COUNTY
DRAINAGE BOARD
JUNE 16, 2009
The Vanderburgh County Drainage Board met in session this 16th day of June, 2009 at 5:26 p.m. in room 301 of the Civic Center Complex with President Lloyd Winnecke presiding.
Call to Order |
Commissioner Tornatta: Mr. Jeffers?
Approval of the June 2, 2009 Drainage Board Meeting Minutes |
Bill Jeffers: I had promised some printed agendas, and when I sent the agenda to my printer it rebelled on me. That was about 4:30. So, basically, we have the minutes from the last meeting to approve.
President Winnecke: I’ll entertain a motion–
Commissioner Tornatta: So moved.
Commissioner Melcher: Second.
President Winnecke: A motion and a second. Questions or discussion? All in favor say aye.
All Commissioners: Aye.
President Winnecke: Opposed like sign. Okay.
(Motion approved 3-0)
President Winnecke: Okay, thank you.
Approval of Ditch Maintenance Claims |
Bill Jeffers: I have a group of claims here, they are the standard claims for maintenance and contractual work on ditches. I do have one that I sent you an e-mail a week or so ago about a culvert that was completely blocked on Oak Grove Road, $700 for Mark Naas to go out there and clean that out and dispose of that debris. I have the bill for that. That’s the only unusual thing that doesn’t follow the standard procedure. I would ask for you to approve all of these claims please.
Commissioner Tornatta: So moved.
Commissioner Melcher: Second.
President Winnecke: A motion and a second on the claims presented by the County Surveyor. Any questions or discussion? Hearing none, all in favor say aye.
All Commissioners: Aye.
President Winnecke: Opposed? Claims are approved.
(Motion approved 3-0)
Other Business |
Commissioner Tornatta: Hey, Bill, have you heard anything about Mel’s Lane, with a ditch clogged somewhere along the lane?
Bill Jeffers: Is that out by West Terrace?
Commissioner Tornatta: Yeah.
Bill Jeffers: Those ladies were in our office Friday, I believe.
Brenda Jeffers: Sills Lane.
Bill Jeffers: Sills Lane?
Brenda Jeffers: Sills Drive.
Bill Jeffers: Sills Drive?
Commissioner Tornatta: I’ve got Mel’s Lane.
Bill Jeffers: Mel’s Lane? I haven’t heard Mel’s Lane.
Commissioner Tornatta: Okay. If you get a chance–
Bill Jeffers: Send them, send them on down.
Commissioner Tornatta: Okay
Bill Jeffers: I would be happy to do what we can for them.
Discussion of Oak Hill-Bergdolt Road Area Drainage Issue |
Bill Jeffers: I don’t have any further business, unless there’s a continued discussion of the Bergdolt-Oak Hill Road area drainage problem.
Commissioner Tornatta: I’ll start. First off, is there anybody here from Bergdolt Road area that would like to address that? Come on up. Sorry.
Bill Jeffers: That’s alright.
Judy Mefford: My name is Judy Mefford, and I turned in a letter to the County Commissioners, the County Surveyor and the County Engineer that I had wrote. I also have three other letters from neighbors, one with pictures, about the problem that we have in that area. The water runs down Bergdolt Road and shifts off into Clover Drive and goes down and into some of the property down through there, but it also comes on down Bergdolt Road. We live one, we live exactly two blocks off of Oak Hill Road. Tanglewood would go through our house if it went through. The road, the water just before our, it comes down the road, and just before our house starts coming over the road and we end up with huge amounts of water in our yard running down the side of our houses. It gets down through the, in the back ditch, it’s a small ditch there, it’s not, you know, anything real huge, but a small ditch and it takes and goes, collects back there. May 25th, we have two out buildings, and they’re both on concrete pads and they’re raised from the concrete pads, and we had water up to the bottom of those buildings. We had water to within about 15 feet of our house in the front, from the, you know, that come up into our yard and everything. It even got on our carport this time, and previously we had, many years ago we had problems with water coming on our carport, so we had raised our carport four inches. We really don’t get, most of the time don’t get water on our carport. It came up on our carport this time. But, I, like I said, I have three letters, one with pictures. These people all live back on Blossom Lane, which is the street behind us, and they have much flooding back there also.
President Winnecke: Ma’am, what is your address again?
Judy Mefford: 2909 Bergdolt Road.
President Winnecke: 2909, okay.
Commissioner Tornatta: Up here is Oak Hill. Go to picture number four, Brenda. That’s Oak Hill construction there. So, that’s the cross street right here–
Judy Mefford: See, you can...if you look–
Commissioner Tornatta: –cross street to Clover.
Judy Mefford: –at this picture up here. (Inaudible. Not at microphone.)
Madelyn Grayson: Mrs. Mefford, can you come back to the microphone so that we can get your comments on the record?
Commissioner Tornatta: Sorry about that, we’ve got so many rules around here.
Judy Mefford: Sorry. If you look up here you can see the water coming down. That mailbox right there is ours. See, you can tell, you know, it comes over the road right in there.
Bill Jeffers: The mailbox she pointed to is up at the intersection of Tanglewood–
Judy Mefford: No. Yeah.
Bill Jeffers: At Tanglewood, and the water comes across just like it is here at Leah.
Judy Mefford: It’s right, it’s right across–
Bill Jeffers: It comes across into her driveway.
Judy Mefford: –from, it’s right across from Tanglewood. This lady here has had water in her basement. These people, these people here at 2900 Blossom Lane, I read this, when she brought it over I read it and it’s, I mean, it’s a horror story, as far as they’re concerned. You know, all the rest of them have been having, you know, a lot of water. We get water. We do not have a basement, we have a crawl space. We get water under our house, and we’ve got a sump pump under there to pump it out.
Commissioner Tornatta: Yeah.
Judy Mefford: Because we get so much water under there.
Commissioner Tornatta: John, could you come up here for just a second?
President Winnecke: Ma’am, just to clarify, while John’s coming up, these photographs were taken after the–
Judy Mefford: The May 25th storm.
President Winnecke: –May 25th storm? Okay.
Commissioner Tornatta: Okay, John, looking, I guess, that would be east, it looks like there’s an open ditch, and then it turns into a closed ditch. Right there.
Judy Mefford: Yeah, that’s an open ditch.
Commissioner Tornatta: Now we keep going to a closed ditch, is that correct?
Judy Mefford: That’s correct.
Commissioner Tornatta: I mean, isn’t that part of your problem?
John Stoll: I haven’t been out there and looked into this part of the area, but I know through Bill Jeffers’ reports and through Mike Wathen being out there, I know there’s quite a bit of areas that it alternates back and forth between piped ditches, open ditch, but there’s more piped ditches than there are open ditches.
Commissioner Tornatta: I guess, what I’m asking is, if that’s a piped ditch coming from an open ditch then going, is it going underneath the road there? Underneath from where it’s closed off to the “For Sale” sign, is it supposed to have?
John Stoll: Do you remember where the cross pipe is? There is a cross pipe that goes under Bergdolt, heads south to Blossom, and then south to Sonntag Stevens Ditch. I just don’t remember off the top of my head where that crossing pipe is. What’s the address? I would have to go get that paper.
Bill Jeffers: Right there.
John Stoll: Do you have the laser pointer?
Bill Jeffers: Yeah. Go to map number five, please. Okay, map number five, Ms. Medford, or, Mefford, excuse me, Ms. Mefford lives right here. You can see the grate in her driveway that her husband installed to capture the water that comes across from Tanglewood before it goes into their carport. There’s another grate at their carport entrance. All this, from Clover on the north side of Bergdolt is piped, down to Tanglewood. Then there’s about 60 to 70 feet of open ditch. That’s what you saw in the photograph that Commissioner Tornatta pointed out. The open ditch right here. Then it crosses under Bergdolt Road in a culvert, that would be 2901. You have a letter from that lady. Her name is McLaughlin. She’s not going to be here tonight, I don’t believe, but she sent a letter in. If you see McLaughlin’s letter, this is her home, one house to the west of Ms. Mefford. Then the pipe continues from right there between the two houses and then into Cloverlawn Subdivision, which is the Blossom Lane address that Ms. Mefford referred to. This pipe is, several joints are separated and the pipe’s collapsed. There’s an inlet here that’s completely covered with debris. It continues on down to Sonntag Stevens Ditch.
John Stoll: That’s the area that I sent you an e-mail earlier today where we could find no record of any easements anywhere along that path through where the pipe crosses through the neighborhood, I mean, through the private properties. I should say for the houses that front Bergdolt Road, there was no easement reference in their deeds. There is a platted easement in Cloverlawn Subdivision, but it’s simply just labeled 12 foot easement. It’s not defined as a drainage easement. In the past, Vanderburgh County has treated that as the private property owners problems to deal with, since it wasn’t something that had been maintained by Vanderburgh County. So, if that water is going through there, like Bill said, if it’s obstructed already because it’s collapsing, that’s I’m sure part of the problem. I haven’t actually walked that section, but relying on Bill’s reports, I don’t doubt that it has failed.
Commissioner Tornatta: John, could you give the “Government For Dummies” version of how, what you’re talking about about private property versus easement and why that’s so important? How we have to work versus how a private person has to take care of their own property?
John Stoll: It’s, the counties maintain what’s within the public right-of-way, but what’s outside of public rights-of-way has been maintained by the property owner. Historically we haven’t worked on private property. In years past things weren’t defined as well in the ordinances, but with the ordinance that was passed in 1984, I mean 1994, the drainage ordinance did add quite a bit more language to the plats to try to make people aware of the fact that what’s on their property is theirs to maintain. So, typically we just maintain what’s in the right-of-way.
Commissioner Tornatta: In their deed or their, well, in their property deed it would say if there’s an easement, would it not?
John Stoll: It should. The problem is a lot of those end up saying just subject to easements and rights-of-way of record. Then you have to go back to prior deeds in hopes of finding some specific reference to what might be an easement or right-of-way record. We ran into a couple of those out here on Bergdolt where there wasn’t a specific reference to the right-of-way. That’s why I had to get with the County Attorney to go back to some 1924 Commissioners records to find what was considered to be the right-of-way of record. But, we found no easements for that pipe that comes off of Bergdolt Road.
Commissioner Tornatta: So, if one did not have an easement or right-of-way on their property, then it would be considered private property, and at that point they would either have to get the work done themselves, or they would have to get with a collective group of homeowners and do a Barrett Law project?
John Stoll: Those would be two of the options, yes.
Commissioner Tornatta: But, the county would not go on the private property. I mean, I just want to kind of bring everybody up to speed. We’ve had a chance to talk about this several times here, but for those who are interested in this particular project, the county would not go onto private property without some type of agreement, be it a Barrett Law project or, unless there was an easement that was purchased.
John Stoll: Right, that’s what I was getting ready to say, unless the county went out and secured easements to go build a project, but, right now that’s not there.
Commissioner Tornatta: Okay.
John Stoll: I don’t know, our records aren’t that good in regard to all of this. We really can’t determine who piped what. We’ve been told that the county piped some of the ditches along Bergdolt Road. I don’t doubt that. I’m sure property owners have piped some of that. But, we can’t definitively verify any of that. Likewise, for this pipe that runs south off of Bergdolt Road, I don’t know who installed that or when, so it kind of makes–
Commissioner Tornatta: When you talk about our records aren’t good, you’re talking years and years?
John Stoll: In the office, yes.
Commissioner Tornatta: Right, right.
John Stoll: We’ve got some, we found some records dating back to the 60's that said there were chronic drainage problems in this neighborhood back in the 60's. But, as far as specific lot by lot paperwork showing who installed the pipe and when, we don’t have that.
Commissioner Tornatta: When I was there in the 80's there were problems. I mean, they’ve been there for a while.
John Stoll: I’m not going to say that there might be a record somewhere that does show that there’s an easement out there. We just haven’t found it. With the plat it was easy, there’s a 12 foot platted easement through there. The easement language was not very specific though. It just called it a 12 foot easement. The owners certificate language was set up to imply that there were only public utility easements, but drainage wasn’t listed in there. So, we’ve got a drainage pipe running through an easement that’s not defined for any specific use.
Commissioner Tornatta: Can you tell me was there an attempt to remedy a problem after our last meeting? We allocated up to, I think, $1,000. Was there an attempt to do something?
John Stoll: That was–
Commissioner Tornatta: Because I know you guys were out there.
John Stoll: Yes, we have been, we’ve received these other complaints regarding drainage after that last meeting. We have been focusing everything up here at the Clover and Bergdolt area, based on the original complaint that came up from Dave and Paulette Senning at the last Drainage Board. So, we hadn’t really been going out and surveying everything further west down Bergdolt. I know Bill Jeffers has been out there, I know Mike Wathen from my office has been out there, but we haven’t focused our efforts on any kind of, whether temporary or permanent fixes for anything other than back here at Clover and Bergdolt. We are still working on that. We’ve done some survey work through here, (Inaudible) evaluate the possibility of putting a curb through here, doing some milling of the asphalt through Clover south of Bergdolt, trying to establish maybe a better crown along Bergdolt in this area. We’re working with the County Highway Department, Chris Walsh is going to go out and do some additional shoulder grading work through here to try and divert the run off into a couple of inlets where those ditches have been piped. But, we haven’t really done any detailed looks of anything past Clover, other than to say that if we had to go out and replace all the pipes out there, it would probably be a $300,000 plus project, based on some unit prices from a drainage project that we did on Number Six School Road back in 2005.
Commissioner Tornatta: Not to belabor the issue, but if we were going to do a lot of improvements on Clover, especially at that corner, would we not wait until the Oak Hill Road project at Bergdolt was done?
John Stoll: It is, for all practical purposes, paving wise, it’s done. All the asphalt is in, so the curb is, I mean, the asphalt is up to the curb elevation. So, everything per plan has been completed out there. The only reason it’s not open yet is that the traffic signal is not operational as of yet. If the weather would cooperate, we would hope to get that open yet this week.
Commissioner Tornatta: Okay, well, I personally would like to see that thoroughfare open before we try and send traffic even further down, further west. So, I mean, if it’s only going to be a week, I mean, I think we can use that.
John Stoll: For the work that we’re looking at as far as the surveying and any design work as far as any asphalt and curbs, just by virtue of getting those plans and specs together, that intersection of Oak Hill and Bergdolt–
Commissioner Tornatta: Would be open?
John Stoll: –would be open by the time we get all that done anyway.
Commissioner Tornatta: Okay.
John Stoll: So, there wouldn’t be an overlap of anything that we did–
Commissioner Tornatta: Yeah, okay.
John Stoll: –over in that radius area.
Commissioner Tornatta: Yeah.
John Stoll: But, we just haven’t done any detailed evaluations further west in Ms. Mefford’s area.
Commissioner Tornatta: Okay.
President Winnecke: John, I know we’re kind of going back and forth between these two sets of complaints. Let me work backwards. In terms of the Clover, when will you have your survey and recommendation work ready for us?
John Stoll: We are waiting for a survey monument, there’s a section corner that needs to be reset out in the middle of Oak Hill and Bergdolt, and once that’s set then they can establish that, the surveyors in my office can establish that section line which allows us to establish the property lines and determine where we can work and still be within county right-of-way. According to what the contractor said, if the weather cooperates, they should have that section corner monument reset tomorrow. My guys don’t have that much survey work left to do. So, I would think that we could get a plan for that put together in the next couple of weeks.
President Winnecke: So, theoretically, at our meeting on the 30th you could have a series of recommendations, such as adding the curbing, doing the additional mill work, and perhaps some reworking of the crown, is that right?
John Stoll: Right, the survey shots show that there is, other than in one spot, and that’s basically opposite–
Brenda Jeffers: Where do you want to go, John? That one, is that the one?
John Stoll: Yeah, that will work. Other than opposite, and I don’t remember which driveway it is, but we’ve got a crown in excess of two percent, except at one of these two driveways it’s one point some odd percent. A two percent crown is a normal crown. So, the survey is showing that the crown is not as much of a problem as we initially thought, but we could still establish something better. It will just take some milling and resurfacing work to make that happen.
President Winnecke: Okay. So, I’m wondering if it makes sense, the point you just asked, if we authorize John and Bill to do an initial survey, for lack of a better phrase, of Ms. Mefford’s complaint area, like we have for the Senning’s, and maybe report back at our next meeting, at about the same time that you’ll hopefully have a recommendation on the other. Does that make sense?
Commissioner Tornatta: Yeah, and what I would, I don’t know what your timing would be, but if we’re going to have Oak Hill Road open at Bergdolt, and we had all the stars in alignment to do a recommendation knowing what our limitation was on the price, I mean, I would get it going. I mean, I would make a recommendation to do that and not wait until the 30th. My problem is I don’t want to have two more roads closed at the same time. We have to think a little bit deeper than to keep closing roads. So, like I said, if we’re doing milling, at that point, if the road’s open, I would rather get started on that before the 30th if we have open time to do that, or he’s got somebody that’s down and can’t pave or whatever, I would rather get that milling done before then.
John Stoll: Anything that we do as far as contract work goes, though, we have to send out a notice to the contractors and give them at least seven days. So, we would have to have something in the contractors hands...is it seven or is it ten days for a quote? I can’t remember off the top of my head.
Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Ten.
John Stoll: Ten? Okay, we would have to have something in the contractors hands basically by Friday in order that you could open up a quote for the curb installation at the next meeting.
Commissioner Tornatta: Okay.
John Stoll: I don’t see us hitting that, just because–
Commissioner Tornatta: Okay.
John Stoll: –we’re not going to have the survey done until probably tomorrow or Thursday, and then–
Commissioner Tornatta: So, we probably wouldn’t be ready to go until the 30th?
John Stoll: We could probably have a plan, but it won’t be ready for sending out to the contractors.
Commissioner Tornatta: Okay.
John Stoll: That would be independent of everything further west down Clover. I think, in some of the e-mails Bill Jeffers has summarized the problem fairly well. I mean, we can go out and take a look at it in greater detail, but primarily the problem is piped ditches, lack of adequate sized pipes, failed pipes, you name it, but there’s quite an assortment of everything that’s created the problems out there.
Commissioner Tornatta: Okay.
Judy Mefford: I just have some more comments I want to make. Will you put–
Brenda Jeffers: Is that the one?
Judy Mefford: –okay, you’ve got it up. Let’s see now, my house is here. Put up the next, no, okay, okay, here, I’m here. Ms. McLaughlin lives here, and I think you have a letter from her, she has lived out there probably longer than anybody in the neighborhood right now. She said that from Tanglewood all the way up to Oak Hill there used to be a ditch that is like here. Okay? Through the years they’ve been closed. Let’s see, this is our house, yeah. This house, I know that they do not, they did not have any water in their basement the 25th, but previously the lady that used to live there had major problems with water in her ditch. She’s got a back up sump pump now. She’s got a sump pump in the basement plus a back up on it, a battery one and stuff. Let’s see where I’m at, this right now is a rent house, this is Mr. Hunt’s house who is here, and he has had major problems in the back, and then there’s one more house that’s on this road, and in the back area (Inaudible. Not at microphone.)
Brenda Jeffers: This one here?
Judy Mefford: Yeah, it would be sitting out here someplace.
Bill Jeffers: (Inaudible. Not at microphone.)
Brenda Jeffers: Okay.
Bill Jeffers: You would have to go (Inaudible.)
Judy Mefford: See, here’s me, McLaughlin’s, the house that Mrs. Rothard used to live in , and I’m not sure what the name is right now, but, the rent house, Mr. Hunt’s house, and then there’s another house that’s here. That’s all that’s in that line there, but, like I said, Ms. McLaughlin said that on Bergdolt up–
Brenda Jeffers: Sorry, I’ll put it back.
Judy Mefford: –okay, from Bergdolt, from Tanglewood all the way up used to be a major ditch. This is a major ditch here. I mean, it’s a pretty good sized ditch. Right?
Bill Jeffers: Yes, Ma’am. One of the pictures shows quite a bit of water in it.
Judy Mefford: Yeah, yeah. There was a lot of water here, and a lot of water, you know, in that ditch on the 25th, but now this back in here is collapsed pipes all the way up and down, you know, and everything.
Brenda Jeffers: Mrs. Mefford, do you want us to show picture number eight on there?
Judy Mefford: Okay, this is Tanglewood, where I was just showing.
Bill Jeffers: (Inaudible).
Judy Mefford: That’s the ditch. So, you know, it has major water in it.
Bill Jeffers: What she’s saying is that’s the ditch that used to exist all the way to Clover and has been piped.
Judy Mefford: She said all the way to Oak Hill is what she told me. But, it used to, you know, it used to be a major ditch there. Now I know we don’t have, there’s no easement on the back of our property, but I’m almost positive that there’s an easement on the front of our property. But, I don’t know exactly how it reads.
Commissioner Tornatta: Okay. Yeah?
John Stoll: There’s a 30 foot–
Commissioner Tornatta: Thirty foot? I mean, it really depends where the issue rests.
Judy Mefford: Okay, well and the thing I’ll tell you when his guy, Wathen, was out there, he was up Clover Drive, and we’ve been keeping a good eye on that Bergdolt and Oak Hill project. We walk up every day and see what they’ve done and walk back, you know, but they were there at Clover and Bergdolt and we talked to them, and they said that they had done some stuff down this way. I asked them how far down, and he, the one guy didn’t really know, and I says well if you didn’t get all the way down to Tanglewood, you haven’t got all the way of the problem.
Commissioner Tornatta: Alright. Okay. Thank you, Judy.
Judy Mefford: You’re welcome. Thank you.
Dave Senning: I’m Dave Senning. I was here a couple of weeks ago. I would like to bring, this is my wife, my girlfriend.
Paulette Senning: We’re back.
Dave Senning: John was talking about a monument, I guess, John, was that in the middle of the intersection there? I guess, and that is to figure out where our easement is on both sides of the road?
Commissioner Tornatta: Okay.
Dave Senning: That’s what that is for?
John Stoll: Yeah, so we can establish property lines.
Dave Senning: Okay.
Commissioner Tornatta: To establish property lines.
Dave Senning: Is there anything, is that supposed to be set tomorrow, maybe, you think?
John Stoll: That’s what the contractor told me.
Dave Senning: Okay. If that’s set before the next meeting, can we have anything done on the ditches or anything to clear the easement out, the grates or anything like that? On the north side of Bergdolt.
John Stoll: We sent a work order out to Chris today to cover that.
Commissioner Tornatta: Okay, John said a work order was sent out to Chris to cover that. Just because they can’t pick this up on the microphone.
Paulette Senning: This has been happening for two weeks.
Commissioner Tornatta: Right.
Dave Senning: You’ve been waiting for that monument?
Commissioner Tornatta: I understand. The, nobody ever said government was that fast.
Dave Senning: It’s never fast. You’re right.
Commissioner Tornatta: But, the one thing that we are trying to do, Paulette, and this is, I’m going to allude to it just like I did the last time we were here, you have a problem and let’s say that it’s recognized as a problem. We can’t, we can’t just fix your problem without thinking of other problems that are potentially caused by fixing your problem.
Paulette Senning: I agree, Troy, and I understand that, and I understand because of us it’s opened up a lot of situations for people that have just been contending with a lot of problems for years.
Commissioner Tornatta: Right.
Paulette Senning: But, the one thing that was discussed two weeks ago was just doing a little bit of grading to those two properties across, before you get to the corner of Clover Drive and Bergdolt–
Commissioner Tornatta: Right.
Paulette Senning: –on the north side of Bergdolt, just grading back to allow the water to flow into those inlets until we do get things done. That’s pretty simplistic.
Commissioner Tornatta: I understand, and I think, I mean, I talked to Mike Wathen about it, it was to my understanding that he, that, you know, the thought, on paper it looked real good, then he went out there and it didn’t, it was not adding up.
Paulette Senning: There’s a lot of problems out there.
Commissioner Tornatta: So, he thought that that was going to push into other areas and cause additional problems, and before he would go to that level, that’s when we started to get a little bit harder assessment of the problem. That’s what I kind of figured might happen. We would have to look at the entire problem and address the entire problem (Tape Flip) fifty band-aids to only pacify–
Paulette Senning: I totally agree, but when you’ve got inlets, two inlets that would help on the north side of Bergdolt between Clover and Oak Hill, and all you’ve got to do is just push back some grading that’s within the easement, just open that up so that instead of the water flowing across on the south side, which it always does, that would allow it to drain into those inlets. That was the simplistic thing that could have been done and has not even been touched.
Commissioner Tornatta: Yeah.
Paulette Senning: I understand the total scope, because Bill’s been out many, many times and his assistant and Chris and we know, and we knew when we started with our complaint that there was far more issues in–
Commissioner Tornatta: Right.
Paulette Senning: –the neighborhood that everybody has just lived with. But, there’s an abundance of water that comes down off Mr. Viner’s property–
Mel Viner: Yes.
Paulette Senning: –that comes down, as well as, let me say this, Bill was out last week, and they opened up a fire hydrant, that water did not flow, all of it down Oak Hill Road and take it with those pipes that were put in to go to the, not the creek, but the ditch. Sonntag Stevens, it drains to that. It came down Bergdolt Road on the south side where we have problems, so that is still an issue, along with what comes north of his property. That combined force is what we’re nervous every time we get rainfall predictions or, you know. I know it’s compound.
President Winnecke: To your question on the, the immediate question on the inlets, Chris, you guys have a work order on that, and you anticipate getting that done when?
Commissioner Tornatta: Well, can you just come up here and explain, and, John, maybe you can explain as well, what that would do and how that would help, if it would help?
Dave Senning: Uh, Troy?
Commissioner Tornatta: Yes?
Dave Senning: This gentleman here, Bill, is it Viner?
Mel Viner: Viner.
Dave Senning: Viner, okay. You live at this circle drive right there.
Commissioner Tornatta: Okay.
Dave Senning: Okay? He has an explanation, he gets a lot of water from up top of the hill that we were concerned about, and he has put piping in to try to get it into this culvert pipe, but he’s got an explanation more, because I don’t know if John has seen this, or, Bill, have you been up there yet?
Bill Jeffers: Behind his house?
Dave Senning: Yeah.
Bill Jeffers: No.
Dave Senning: Okay.
Mel Viner: Well, see, I’ve lived at Bergdolt, at 3108 for ten years. When I come there, when I was buying the house I mentioned that their driveway was being washed out. They said, well, they’ve had problems when it rains hard that it does that. Before I moved in they said they put a load of gravel in my driveway, well, they had a hard rain and the neighbor across the street of Bergdolt that gravel in my driveway washed into his front yard, which they live behind their house. So, I don’t know what happened to them, but I’m sure, but this was before I moved in. But, anyway I moved in and sure enough every time it rained hard that it would come down the driveway. So, at the top of my driveway, right there, it’s like a creek from all the way up the top. I don’t know where all that water is coming from. I’ve asked my neighbors, they don’t know. But, when it rains I’ve got whitecaps coming through my back yard down to my driveway. So, I put these two culverts to dump it in that ditch, and it works. My driveway doesn’t wash out anymore. If I plug that back up, it’s either going to go underneath my driveway, or on top of the driveway, coming down that hill there’s no stopping it. So, but, really the problem with theirs is not only the water coming off the hill, the drainage pipe that’s under ground in front of my house, when it rains hard it will come out of that ditch because it can’t accept it. Now, since they put that new road in, I think, this is just my opinion, that the water will come off that road and when that sewer or drainage pipes that they put on the road, when the water comes down it didn’t even touch that. That’s when she got all the water in her yard. But, when it rains like two and a half, three inches, that front culvert won’t take it. It will come out of the ditch, right across the street and right down. Now, I’ve only seen this three times in ten years that it’s come out of it. Except the other, the last time it rained hard they had this blocked, this, yeah this culvert, they had it blocked and it come over the road, but down in the far corner where that sign is, when it rains real hard right there, that drainage pipe there will not take all the water, it’s coming out and down. But, on my far side of the driveway, which it still has water coming out of it from, up from the hill, but my driveway doesn’t get washed out. When she come over and complaining about the water, I went to my back yard and looked around, and all the yards, all my neighbors yards are slanted to my driveway, which I didn’t even realize that, you know. So, I mean, the water’s coming down, down my driveway to the street, and down the street. But, you know, I think that the main problem is that the culvert from Oak Hill, or not the culvert, but the drainage pipe from Oak Hill down, all the way down the street is a problem. It’s just not big enough to carry the water.
Dave Senning: Right.
Mel Viner: Of course, you know, I realize it would be an expensive thing to do, but I don’t know how you’re going to get around it other than put in a larger pipe down the street so that people can, including that ditch that they’re talking about. That water out on the road has been there ever since I moved in. I would drive by there and it’s been in there, you know, well, people couldn’t walk across the street from the water. So, that’s about all I’ve got to say is that. But, like the drainage pipe on the east side in the corner, the one that didn’t accept the water, well, they come out and put blacktop on it so it would and they slanted the road so it goes to this ditch right there by my house. All that water is going to run in that ditch, which it’s going to be more water off that road. So, I don’t know what they’re, I’m sure that when it rains hard, it’s going to be worse than what it was, because this culvert wouldn’t take it before, I mean, the drainage pipe wouldn’t take it before, but now it’s going to get more water. So, that’s about all–
Paulette Senning: I just want to say something real quick. Since we’re talking about that area, there’s standing water there. The last rain we had was Wednesday, and there’s still standing water in that ditch, before you get to his driveway from Oak Hill to Bergdolt that they designed and redid or did whatever, and that’s a health issue. I took a picture of it yesterday and it’s still standing there and we haven’t had a rain since Wednesday. The north side of Bergdolt.
Commissioner Tornatta: Okay, I, you sure?
Paulette Senning: I’m sorry?
Commissioner Tornatta: You sure?
Paulette Senning: I’m positive.
Commissioner Tornatta: It rained yesterday.
Judy Mefford: Well, it doesn’t matter (Inaudible).
Paulette Senning: Up to yesterday.
Commissioner Tornatta: Okay.
Paulette Senning: Before we had, from Thursday on we did not have any rain, maybe a few sprinkles, but nothing.
Commissioner Tornatta: Okay.
Paulette Senning: We had warm weather over the weekend, whatever–
Commissioner Tornatta: Right.
Paulette Senning: –and water was still standing, it’s been there since Thursday, and other neighbors have made a comment too.
Commissioner Tornatta: Okay.
Paulette Senning: I went and took a look on Sunday and that’s when we....oh, I’m sorry. I’ve talked to you before. Mr. Viner and I were talking–
Commissioner Tornatta: Okay.
Paulette Senning: –but, as you can tell from his comments, there is such an abundant amount of rain water that comes down from the north side, the backside of this property. So, whether it’s bigger piping or opening up those ditches for those two homes, something’s got to keep that water from coming on the south side that causes us more problems. It’s just simplistic.
Judy Mefford: I saw that water too, and I’ve seen it many times when it had rained several days before. But, there is a ditch of water there. It’s not a lot, but it’s enough, it’s a good breeding ground for mosquitos.
Bill Jeffers: Well, after listening to all the residents, and in particular Mr. Viner’s description of what’s going on in his backyard and driveway, I’m beginning to wonder why I’m, what my job is, because they described everything perfectly. You didn’t need my descriptions. I think if you’ll read through my suggestions they do reflect similar concerns and there are suggestions as to how to address them, but between these residents, their description and John Stoll’s ability to plan and give you cost estimates, I think you all can handle it without me really. But, having said that, I would like to point out some of the cold, hard facts, and I’m sure Mr. Viner and others are aware of it, I hope I’m pronouncing your name correctly.
Mel Viner: You are.
Bill Jeffers: In particular, the pipe he points out that goes under his two driveways is grossly undersized. I think he pointed that out, but it’s also of a material that we don’t use because it tends to flex or deflect, and, right now, that pipe when I looked at it is deflected and is not taking the amount of water that it would take if it were soundly installed. Of course, because those things, and he did not install that. I’m not pointing any fingers at him, he bought it, you know, as is, as it was, when he bought the property it was already there. But, then his pipe is connected to a clay tile under the next property, and then that goes underneath Clover Drive, and on the other side it’s a plastic tile, and then the next tile after that down Bergdolt is a clay tile, on and on and on. So, we don’t know how these were joined together, but I can assure you that they are not appropriately and adequately sized or designed or, you know, the workmanship is not there. So, everything has been addressed by these property owners, I can verify that they’re telling you the truth. I’ll just leave it there.
President Winnecke: Chris, did you have, you stepped up at one point.
Chris Walsh: We’re going to go back out. I talked to John, I just did a very temporary, some cuts one day when it was starting to already rain, and it looked like it would help a little bit, and I think what he’s got us to do is going to help a lot more. But with that said, if that helps this and up by Oak Hill and Bergdolt, pipes adequate or non-adequate, if they’re open going down through there, they’re never going to cross, because that pipe down at Leah and going to that ditch. So, that, this whole north side of Bergdolt is filling up full of water and just holding, even if they’re wide open and they’re different sizes, that water is never going to make it down to that woman’s house. That’s why it’s filling up. The pipe is then filling all the way up to this horse shoe drive so it won’t allow it to take anymore water and also come across. Don’t you agree? So, I think it’s kind of a two fold problem. Did that help?
Commissioner Tornatta: I’m not a water guru, but I will say, do we think by going out there and talking or making modifications and seeing how the water rolls that we’re going to have a better understanding of what could happen? Or is this going to be, should we tell those who have these pieces on their private property that they need to seek some other type of assistance?
Bill Jeffers: Okay, let’s back up. What Mr. Viner told you was, basically, the pipe underneath his driveway fills up and geisers out. It’s so full of water before the project was ever constructed, it geisered out.
Commissioner Tornatta: Right.
Bill Jeffers: Okay? So, that means it has been overcome by the amount of water that comes off Oak Hill and Bergdolt. The project puts more water into that pipe. What Chris is telling you is that no matter what we do, the pipe already is fully charged with water, it’s overcharged with water, it’s geisering out. Okay, it only gets worse from there. I want everyone to understand, whether it’s Mr. Viner or the persons who we’re trying to help by putting the water into the pipe, when Chris’ crew goes out there, I want you guys to know this too, when Chris’ crew goes out there and peels that shoulder back, Mr. Viner will have no grass in his front yard from the edge of the pavement back to the pipe. Which is probably a good ten to fifteen feet. It will peel all the grass off, that’s what’s holding the water up on the street. So, when you peel the shoulder back the grass goes away, all around his mailbox and everything. That’s why a lot of times we’re sent to do a job and we’re uncomfortable about doing it, because the reaction by the homeowner is going to be–
Commissioner Tornatta: Strong.
Bill Jeffers: –alarmed. He’s going to be alarmed. I just wanted to throw some facts out there. What Chris, I think, is trying to tell you in a nice way, I can tell you because I’m elected, he’s appointed. You know, I’m good for four years. When he goes and does this you’re going to get some phone calls. He’s being nice about it, but that, it’s coming out of my mouth now. When he peels that shoulder back you’re going to get some phone calls. It’s going to put more water in that pipe, and that pipe’s not going to handle it. Okay?
Chris Walsh: I would like to see if I could get somebody with the city to come out with a camera and try and drop in that pipe down by Leah Drive and see how far I can get in and look and just see what the magnitude of the problem is in that pipe. Because that would also help. That would help this woman, and in a general way would help them as well, if we come to find out, like in one of my pictures you see where it could be a telephone pole affecting it.
Commissioner Tornatta: Yeah, but is that, would we do that on private property?
Chris Walsh: Well, that’s, I can camera it just to get us an idea, then you could go from that point. I mean, I may go in and see that it’s a total collapse on it, or I may get in there and see that it’s just a telephone pole and some obstructions around, you know, I think it’s worth taking a look at that and seeing.
John Stoll: From what we were able to find, basically, everything, ditches, pipes, whatever is out here, everything is in right-of-way all along this whole area.
Commissioner Tornatta: It’s just when you take that–
John Stoll: When you go south.
Commissioner Tornatta: Right.
John Stoll: Then all of a sudden it’s on private property.
Commissioner Tornatta: So, if it is in private property, can we still get a camera shot of it?
John Stoll: That’s probably a question for Ted.
Commissioner Tornatta: Well, he’s talking about running a camera--
John Stoll: Run a camera through the pipe--
Commissioner Tornatta: Through the pipe.
John Stoll:–to try to figure out where the obstruction is.
Chris Walsh: Picture 12 will show you where (Inaudible)--
John Stoll: Even if the pipe is on private property. Basically, if he could get a camera, he would like to run it down, I’m not sure I’m at the right house, but there’s a pipe that runs north-south. It’s off the county right-of-way, and to try and find the extent of where it might be obstructed (Inaudible).
Commissioner Tornatta: Is entering of the camera ,would it be on public right-of-way? The camera would be traveling on private property.
Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Yeah, no, I don’t think we can do that without getting the consent of the people who’s private property we’re going over.
Commissioner Tornatta: I would agree. Yes, sir?
J.R. Mefford: I’m J.R. Mefford. My wife was just up here.
Commissioner Tornatta: Okay.
J.R. Mefford: If you...there used to be a ditch all the way along the north side of Bergdolt there. Why not just open it up and put culverts in the driveway and have it (Inaudible) and put the grass, sod just like they did up there and have an open ditch.
Commissioner Tornatta: Um, okay, open the ditch back? Is that what–
J.R. Mefford: Yes.
Paulette Senning: Okay, talking about his property, Mr. Viner and they’ve been discussing that, pushing back some of that, grading a little bit, opening it up, then the homeowner is going to be upset. That is directly across from where the water comes into our yard and came into our sunroom. Compound problem. The intersection feeds water down Bergdolt on the south side. The water, he lives on the north side, that water comes across to the south side and feeds into our properties between two houses, we’ve sent pictures, blah, blah, blah, blah, don’t want to repeat a lot of things, but the real sad thing is, and John Stoll and I have had a lot of lengthy conversations. One was yesterday for an hour, again. In going over things, the one thing I asked and a lot of property owners in the area are asking, many live on Bergdolt and how the water crosses and feeds on the south side into our properties, and not just ours, but others, but we’re the only ones who have had water in our sunroom, is the fact, they opened up the hydrant, the water came out, they saw how it flowed. I don’t understand as a taxpaying citizen why studies were not performed prior to them doing the work on the intersection to see and test, number one, how the water would flow; number two, where it flowed how it would feed into the creek. The Sonntag Ditch actually, they call it a creek but it’s a ditch. How that water could get down Bergdolt to the correct piping that is a mess, where are those studies? Before we have more of a mess. That’s what we have. We’ve got to stop that water from crossing the north side of Bergdolt Road over to the property owners on the south side. Clover Drive, a couple of weeks ago when it rained, it was like you could drive a canoe down there.
Commissioner Tornatta: Yep.
Paulette Senning: I mean, our roads out there should not be ditches. That’s how they are. Bergdolt is a ditch, Clover is a ditch, you know, and all that does, if we do not maintain the system that needs to be implemented for the property owners, you’re going to devaluate our property. We cannot, it’s just gotten progressively worse, and in doing so, homeowners have done things to try to adjust, and, finally, it’s to the point, with that project is showing more water’s coming down. We can’t do it by ourselves. We just cannot.
Commissioner Tornatta: John, how was the drainage addressed? Was it through our Board? I know it was a state project, so, was it done through the state?
John Stoll: We reviewed the plans in our office. Ultimately, the Commissioners signed off on it, INDOT signed off on it. I guess, I’m in the minority, I disagree with the statements that the project is contributing all this extra water. There is water that does come across Oak Hill and hits the radius, part of it goes south, part of it goes west. The part that goes west ultimately comes down this back property line. That is not the water that’s coming down through here between these houses that ultimately got in that sunroom. So, yes, there is water, but it’s not the same source. The issue about the ditch here and going into the pipes here, there’s an inlet that was installed with a project right here in this radius, so, the water that gets to there is being collected, sent due south. Water that doesn’t get in that inlet does turn the corner and goes into that ditch. This ditch is only picking up basically a couple of lots. What’s north of there ends up out in the street, which in turn ends up in the storm sewers that go north-south on Oak Hill. I disagree with the statements that the project is contributing this tremendous amount of additional water. That being said, I’m not going to say that everything is absolutely perfect out there either. I’ve heard criticism about the 15 inch pipe that’s out there for that lot, the vacant lot. That’s a 15 inch pipe because the designers told me yesterday that’s the INDOT minimum. They said it didn’t need to be a 15 inch, but INDOT standards required it be a 15 inch. So, that’s why we have a 15 inch pipe upstream of a 12 inch pipe. So, anyway, all that being said, ultimately, the plans were reviewed through my office, and I brought it to the Commissioners. I couldn’t tell you when, but for your signatures, authorizing to put the project out for bid.
President Winnecke: Okay.
Paulette Senning: All I will say is that any amount of water that’s adding to the already existing problem, and it was a proven fact all that water, when they opened up the fire hydrant, did not go down Oak Hill, the piping down to the creek, I mean, down to the ditch. Some of it came down Bergdolt. We don’t need any more added problem. We already have a big enough problem that needs to be corrected, but now you compound this with it, it’s got to be stopped, even if you have open ditches on the south side of Bergdolt with piping, the changes that need to be made. I mean, when you have tornadic weather, really bad, bad storms, more than just rainfall, then what’s going to happen? I mean, we’ve got to work a little bit beyond and protect what if, because we can get tornadic weather any time, cells whatever. But, right now all we’ve dealt with with the water in our sunroom twice is rainfall, hard rainfall, nothing more.
Commissioner Tornatta: You’re the man.
President Winnecke: Okay, so, where we stand, John, at our meeting in two weeks, it’s hoped that you will have the final recommendation as to whether we should proceed with the curbing and the milling and the crown work, is that correct?
John Stoll: Right, we’re going to finish up that plan, and going back to the list of things that Bill Jeffers had recommended, if things like the curb and the milling and the resurfacing is done, and the shoulder work is done through Chris’ department, it looks like, and Bill and I have discussed this, it looks like anything that we do now with curbing, with milling and overlays, it wouldn’t be wasted. We’ll still, if the drainage improvements are done on further downstream, this work that we’re doing would not be wasted where we wouldn’t have to come back and rework everything. But, the big picture as far as on downstream from Clover on west, you’re looking at hundreds of thousands dollars if you’re going to replace all those storm sewers with adequately sized pipes. You’ll have to have numerous area drains, you’ll replace every driveway approach. It can be done. We’ve had that project, we’ve designed that project elsewhere. So, it can be done. It will have the limitation of, it would be designed for a 25 year storm, maybe 50, if the pipes would fit, but in the event that you get a rainstorm that exceeds a 50 year storm you’re going to end up with the same thing, uncontrolled water going wherever downhill takes it. So, it wouldn’t be a cure all for these tremendous rainfalls that we get. The other option would be open ditches throughout that whole area, and everytime we’ve dealt with open ditches, most recently in Bohannon Estates, we still get complaints on those ditches. Like I put in one of the e-mails that I sent you, the complaints include standing water, where you get flat grades it makes it hard to drain dry, people lose parking out in front of their house, they’re unsightly, they’re hard to maintain. All those things combined. So, like Bill was saying about stripping the grass off the shoulders, you will get complaints if open ditches were put out there. If you didn’t, I would be shocked. So, but the overall fix for the entire area, that’s really the only two options that are out there. In either case I’m not aware of any funding that’s available, whether you wanted to pursue a ditch or a piping project. Then, if it all ultimately drains south in the Tanglewood-Leah Drive area, and there aren’t any easements and it’s all on private property, then, I guess, the county would have to either, those property owners would have to fix their pipes so it can all outlet, or the county would have to pursue additional work through those private properties as well.
President Winnecke: Okay, so everyone is clear, because I want to make sure I’m clear, we’ll get your recommendations for a short term solution at our meeting in two weeks?
John Stoll: Okay.
President Winnecke: Is that what–
Commissioner Tornatta: Well, hopefully it’s not a short term.
President Winnecke: But, I mean, it’s not a piping or a–
John Stoll: Ditching project.
President Winnecke: It’s a smaller project, just to clarify. Then, Chris, in terms of the other area further, what direction are we going?
Commissioner Tornatta: That way.
President Winnecke: Where the private property is?
Commissioner Tornatta: Right here, west.
President Winnecke: Yeah, west, I mean, I like the idea–
Commissioner Tornatta: South.
President Winnecke: I like the idea of trying to work with the city and get the cooperation of landowners to see what the extent of the damage is. I think before we decide what to do, we need to really assess where that stands.
Commissioner Tornatta: Right.
President Winnecke: That addresses, I think, initially, the Mefford’s issue. Is that something that you can report back to us on in two weeks?
Chris Walsh: In two weeks, weather permitting, I’ll have the shoulder work done. John has given me a plan of action to go by, and that’s what I’ll do. If it’s determined I can do it, I’ll contact with the city and try and get that scheduled and done before hand.
Commissioner Tornatta: I mean, you can contact us anytime between now and then. That’s fine.
President Winnecke: Right, in terms of reporting back. Then, if you could work with Mr. Ziemer–
Chris Walsh: To find out–
President Winnecke: –to ensure that we’re not encroaching inappropriately on private property.
Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: The neighbors will have to give us a right to go on their property and release the county from liability if it goes on their property. If they do that, we can go on their property.
President Winnecke: Okay.
Chris Walsh: I’ll get that taken care of, if I get the permission, I’ll get that camera work done, and I’ll have the–
Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: What we’ll in effect be getting is a temporary easement–
Chris Walsh: An ingress easement?
Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: –for this project.
Commissioner Tornatta: Would that have to be approved through us first?
Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Well, the neighbors will grant the easement, and we will approve the legality of the document, and we’ll look to the County Engineer to tell us that it’s the right property, and, no, it would not have to come back here.
Commissioner Melcher: So, you’re going to see if the city is going to do that, or you’re just going to borrow the camera yourself?
Chris Walsh: The city has the best equipment. They have the equipment that I need to get in there and take a good look at it and just see.
President Winnecke: Right.
Chris Walsh: We may get in and it will be a simple solution. That’s what I’m hoping.
Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: John, we get–
Chris Walsh: We’ll know more one way or the other.
Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: –temporary easements from time to time without coming to the Commissioners for acceptance of those easements.
Chris Walsh: Okay.
Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: So, it will be a combination of the County Engineer letting us know this is the property over which you need the temporary easement, we will draft the temporary easement which will protect the county, and the neighbor, I mean, the owner of the property will have to sign the darn thing. When that’s happened, you then can put your camera through.
Chris Walsh: Okay.
President Winnecke: Thanks, Chris. Any other questions, issues, comments, discussion?
Commissioner Tornatta: I make a motion to adjourn the Drainage Board meeting.
President Winnecke: There’s a motion to adjourn.
Commissioner Melcher: Second.
President Winnecke: All in favor of adjourning the Drainage Board meeting say aye.
All Commissioners: Aye.
(Motion approved 3-0)
President Winnecke: The Drainage Board meeting is adjourned.
(The meeting was adjourned at 6:30 p.m.)
Those in Attendance:
Lloyd Winnecke Troy Tornatta Stephen Melcher
Bill Jeffers Bill Fluty Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.
Madelyn Grayson Judy Mefford Paulette Senning
Dave Senning Mel Viner J.R. Mefford
John Stoll Chris Walsh Others Unidentified
Members of Media
VANDERBURGH COUNTY
DRAINAGE BOARD
Lloyd Winnecke, President
Troy Tornatta, Vice President
Stephen Melcher, Member
(Recorded and transcribed by Madelyn Grayson.)