VANDERBURGH COUNTY

DRAINAGE BOARD

JULY 26, 2005

The Vanderburgh County Drainage Board met in session this 26^th day of July, 2005 at 3:57 p.m. in room 301 of the Civic Center Complex with President Cheryl Musgrave presiding.

President Musgrave: It looks like a good time to start the Drainage Board meeting. So, I’ll call that to order for Tuesday, July 26^th.

President Musgrave: We have minutes of the previous meeting to approve.

Commissioner Crouch: So moved.

Commissioner Nix: Second.

President Musgrave: All those in favor?

All Commissioners: Aye.

President Musgrave: The motion carries.

President Musgrave: First on our agenda is Hawthorne Ridge, modified final drainage plan. Mr. Jeffers?

Bill Jeffers: Yes, I have the plan here if anyone would like to look at it. But, after I looked at it, I realized that the modification they are asking for is so minor that it could have not even come before the board. They’re just wanting to modify one structure because of their vendor, M&W Concrete, and their contractor, BMB, thought it would be more economical and more practical to redesign this one particular structure, and it has no adverse affect on anything whatsoever.

President Musgrave: But, there’s no problem?

Bill Jeffers: Yeah, the County Surveyor recommends approval of the minor modification of the final drainage plan for Hawthorne Ridge Estates. Everything else remains the same.

President Musgrave: Do I hear a motion?

Commissioner Crouch: So moved.

Commissioner Nix: Second.

President Musgrave: All those in favor?

Commissioners: Aye.

President Musgrave: The motion carries.

President Musgrave: Then we move to the more troublesome issue of Ansbro Subdivision. I received your e-mail, Mr. Surveyor, regarding the issues that we don’t have an agreement with the Town of Darmstadt. I discussed that with the County Attorney, but I would like him to give his opinion as to whether we should be making drainage plans for the Town of Darmstadt.

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Well, I would, I think I would like to further research that, but I would like to suggest that we defer approval until we see if we shouldn’t have an agreement with Darmstadt. I’m thinking we should. It’s a political subdivision within Vanderburgh County, just as the City of Evansville is a political subdivision within Vanderburgh County, and we don’t, I mean, we have an arrangement with the city to do drainage work, but I don’t think we have such an arrangement with Darmstadt, and I would like to look into that. So, I also understand that prior Commissioners under prior administrations have in fact gone ahead and done drainage approval work for Darmstadt without an agreement being in place, but that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t investigate whether we should have one now.

President Musgrave: Commissioners?

Commissioner Crouch: Do you, would it be the pleasure of the attorney or the Surveyor to defer this until the next month? I don’t know the urgency on this.

Bill Jeffers: I would just like to make a comment or two, if I may. What I’ve passed down the line here is a statute, IC36-9-28.5, that I became aware of a few years ago, and had brought to the attention of a previous board where the legislature says that by January 1, 2001 the County Commissioners, the City Council, or the Town Board should establish a policy by resolution or ordinance governing storm water runoff from developing areas. If you’ll look down at subsection five, you’ll see that as regards a town, such as the Town of Darmstadt, their policy should encompass the entire town area, territory, unless the legislative body of that town specifies, by resolution, that the territory of the town be included in the policy of the county. As Mr. Ziemer pointed out we customarily have, the board has allowed me to review the plans and taken action on those plans, because the Area Plan Commission requires that a drainage plan be approved before they look at the preliminary plat next month. So, we did it as a customary favor before this legislation took place. But, since this legislation has taken place, I asked the Town Board to take an action, and all they did was send some letters showing that they had asked us on occasion to take an action. They, and that’s why I brought it before your board at this time. This is the first one that’s come from the Town of Darmstadt, and I wanted to make you aware of the same thing that I made the previous boards aware of, that there is no policy known to me, and that you may be taking a risk in approving something outside the boundaries of this statute.

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: If we delayed this for a month–

Bill Jeffers: No problem.

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Is it a problem for them?

Bill Jeffers: No. Right now there were so many issues involved, which I don’t need to go into at this time, because they’ve withdrawn it temporarily. There’s other issues besides this one that are involved, and they’re going to discuss it with their client who’s out of town at the time and decide how to re-approach this.

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: So, you weren’t planning to ask for approval today in any event?

Bill Jeffers: Or an extension at this time.

President Musgrave: Okay. It’s withdrawn?

Bill Jeffers: Right, but I did want to point this out to you–

President Musgrave: Thank you.

Bill Jeffers: –so that you could pursue it with your legal counsel.

Commissioner Nix: I’m curious, who did you speak with at Darmstadt about these issues?

Bill Jeffers: I speak with, the question was who do I speak with in the Town of Darmstadt? I speak with David Whipple who’s on the Town Board, and has been Town President.

Commissioner Nix: Okay, he can represent Darmstadt on these issues then?

Bill Jeffers: Basically, I just touch base with him because I know him.

President Musgrave: Mr. Jeffers, has, since 2001 has the Commission taken action on any drainage plan presented to it within the town limits of Darmstadt to the best of your knowledge?

Bill Jeffers: The last thing was some minor expansion of the parking lot at Bauer’s Grove, and I don’t know if it’s been since January 1, 2001 or not, I would have to look that up.

President Musgrave: Well, Mr. Ziemer, would it be possible for the Town of Darmstadt to adopt the appropriate language and make it retroactive to 2001?

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Certainly.

President Musgrave: Alright, I would ask that you explore that in your discussions with the Town Council.

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Can you, is it W-h-i-p-p-l-e?

Bill Jeffers: Yes, sir.

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Do you have a phone number for him here? I’ll call your office. Never mind.

President Musgrave: Alright. Then, have we settled the Ansbro Subdivision matter on the agenda?

Bill Jeffers: Yes, Ma’am.

President Musgrave: We will move then to Hargett Brothers Enterprises, LLC.

Bill Jeffers: As regards Hargett Brothers Enterprises, which is a scale company just south of, it’s coming up on your screen, it’s just south of the intersection of Mill Road and St. Joe Avenue where the County Garage is. It’s just south of the Warrick County Co-Op. We ran into some technical issues regarding the drainage basin, due to grades and building elevations and so forth. They’re just very technical, and Mr. Chris Weil is the design engineer here representing Hargett Brothers Enterprises, and I believe he’s going to ask for a one week extension to consider the plan, because he has to redesign some building elevations.

President Musgrave: Do you want to approach and ask for that, sir? Please state who you work for.

Chris Weil: I’m Chris Weil, I’m an engineer for Hinderliter Construction, the design/build firm on this project. I think what we’re going to do is probably revise some of the way we’re conveying the surface runoff. We may change some of the open channels to pipes and inlets. So, I would like to request a one week extension on this.

President Musgrave: Let me ask Commissioner Crouch, would this occur at the end of our regular Commission meeting then? Immediately upon adjournment?

Commissioner Crouch: I think that is correct.

President Musgrave: Okay, then that is what we will put it on our agenda for. So, you would probably want to arrive here at 3:30, because our meetings don’t last, well, some meetings don’t last long. I’m not making any promises about next week for the book, okay.

Chris Weil: Okay.

President Musgrave: Is there a motion?

Commissioner Crouch: I’ll make a motion that this be continued until next week’s meeting, which would be on August the 2^nd.

Commissioner Nix: Second.

President Musgrave: All those in favor?

Commissioners: Aye.

President Musgrave: The motion carries.

President Musgrave: We have other business, the proposed drainage code amendments regarding flexible pipe.

Bill Jeffers: I believe I e-mailed you the document I’m passing down the way right now last week sometime. What I’m simply asking is, you’ve also seen this language at least once in the past year, and the previous board saw it once, and the County Surveyor is asking the Drainage Board to act today to forward this proposed code language to the Board of County Commissioners for, and schedule a public hearing at some time in the near future to explore adopting an amended drainage code to incorporate the language that begins on page two of what I just handed to you. It would be inserted, if it were passed by the Board of County Commissioners, it would be inserted into section 13.04.300 of the county storm water drainage code. Then the language follows on page two and the top part of page three. What I would ask is that the Drainage Board refer it to the County Attorney to make sure that the language is appropriately written, or that the County Attorney, if not, that the County Attorney would put it into appropriate form, so that if you have a hearing, if you so choose to have a hearing on this issue, that the language presented at the hearing could be codified and passed.

Commissioner Crouch: What, Mr. Jeffers, what, if any, groups or organizations would be opposed to something that would increase the standards for the flexible pipe?

Bill Jeffers: It may find displeasure with people who would be opposed to spending more money, because this would require the subdivision developer or the project site operator to pay for the inspection of the pipe.

Commissioner Nix: Could–

Bill Jeffers: Hire a testing company to come out.

Commissioner Nix: We’ve had this conversation a few weeks ago, you and I spoke on this.

Bill Jeffers: Right.

Commissioner Nix: Could you just, in a nutshell, kind of explain the reason for this, so that everyone understands what–

Bill Jeffers: The County Engineer and I have come across plastic pipe, flexible pipe, corrugated plastic in particular, that has been installed both in subdivisions that become the responsibility of the county, and in commercial subdivisions that remain the responsibility of the commercial landowner, where the pipe has been installed in such a way that it deflected or cracked because of poor installation or installation not in conformance with the manufacturer’s recommendations. Our code and our policy requires that all pipe be installed according to the manufacturer’s recommendations, but your County Engineer and his staff do not have anywhere near the adequate personnel or time to go out and check every single installation as it’s being put in the ground. Therefore, some of it’s rolled in the ground and covered up before your inspectors have an opportunity to view it, and by the time they get around to their final inspection it’s already deflected, or cracked. That which they can see by looking up through there with lamps or what have you, they reject. But, that which they don’t see, we don’t know about until a total failure. Now, when you do a mandrel test you have to drag this measuring device down through the entire length of pipe so you can catch those 12 inch pipes and 18 inch pipes that you can’t visibly look down or crawl through, you would catch the deflection in those–

President Musgrave: Twelve inch pipe....crawl through?

Bill Jeffers: Twelve inch pipe–

President Musgrave: Are we sending kids down there?

Bill Jeffers: No, I said we can’t crawl through those.

President Musgrave: I was going to say, I can’t.

Bill Jeffers: Well, a three foot, in here, when it’s three foot in diameter or larger we don’t require this mandrel testing, because you obviously could crawl through there and look at it.

President Musgrave: You can do that.

Bill Jeffers: Even I, even a person as large as I.

Commissioner Crouch: Was that the nutshell?

Bill Jeffers: That’s a pretty large size nutshell, but there you have it.

Commissioner Nix: Thank you. Just to kind of clear the air there. I guess, the concern would really be from developers and home builders?

Bill Jeffers: Yes, and the Homebuilders Association has had the opportunity to look at this, and I have received some telephone feedback from Mr. Pedtke that he doesn’t seem to....and I don’t like it when other people put words in my mouth, so, you should hear from him at the hearing in person, but he doesn’t seem, there doesn’t seem to be a groundswell against this, because most developers are responsible and want the pipe to be put in correctly.

President Musgrave: So, if you’ll go over the steps one more time. Send it to the County Attorney for his review, then send it where?

Bill Jeffers: To the Board of County Commissioners to schedule a hearing.

President Musgrave: Alright.

Bill Jeffers: Because all ordinances–

President Musgrave: I would say let’s do it after the daylight savings time hearing.

Commissioner Crouch: Except we don’t know when that’s going to be.

President Musgrave: That’s right.

Commissioner Crouch: But, I’ll make a motion that we move this on to the County Attorney and after he has a chance to review it, he would bring it to the County Commissioners meeting, and we’ll go from there.

Commissioner Nix: Second.

President Musgrave: All those in favor?

Commissioners: Aye.

President Musgrave: The motion carries.

Commissioner Nix: I have a question, what’s the city doing now, Mr. Jeffers? In pertaining to this matter.

Bill Jeffers: I don’t know. I would have to ask and get back with you on that. I don’t even know if they allow plastic pipe in the city yet.

Commissioner Nix: I think they do.

Bill Jeffers: They most likely, the city is another municipality that hasn’t done this.

President Musgrave: It is?

Bill Jeffers: The city does not have a policy established by proclamation or ordinance. It’s not the only city in the state of Indiana that doesn’t. They use our ordinance as a guideline, but they haven’t adopted it by policy, by proclamation or ordinance.

President Musgrave: Do they do their own drainage?

Bill Jeffers: They do their own drainage review.

President Musgrave: Okay that’s fine.

Bill Jeffers: The City Engineer.

President Musgrave: Then that works for us.

Bill Jeffers: So, they generally, because we have always written the drainage ordinances, and the MS4 ordinance that you will adopt, they’ll probably cabbage that as well. That’s what they’ve done in the past.

Commissioner Crouch: If, in your review of the ordinance, if you could also check to see what the state or the city does, that would helpful.

Bill Jeffers: I would like to put in a plug for the county. This impending, potential unification, I don’t know what they’re going to do to write their ordinances, since they use all of ours, historically.

President Musgrave: Alright, are we ready to move to encroachment agreements?

Bill Jeffers: We have none today.

President Musgrave: Oh, that’s outstanding.

President Musgrave: What about ditch maintenance claims?

Bill Jeffers: We have four ditch maintenance claims for work that’s been completed by your contractors on four individual groups of drains in the county. They’ve been inspected by our inspectors, and the paperwork is in order, and the County Surveyor recommends payment of those claims.

Commissioner Crouch: So moved.

Commissioner Nix: Second.

President Musgrave: All those in favor?

Commissioners: Aye.

President Musgrave: The motion carries.

President Musgrave: Is there any public comment here tonight? Do you have any comments you would care to make to the Drainage Board?

Bob Kerney: We got a letter stating that we were supposed to be here at 4:00 for the Drainage Board hearing.

President Musgrave: This is the Drainage Board hearing.

Bob Kerney: When we walked in, it was up on the screen, on the Ansbro property.

President Musgrave: I’m going to have to ask you to come to the microphone so that we can capture all of your comments for the record. Make sure you introduce yourself and give us your address.

Bob Kerney: I’m Bob Kerney, and I’m the adjoining property owner to the Ansbro Subdivision. We were just wondering, we’re really not against them, what they’re wanting to do, but the drainage is a real problem for us, because we have a drainage problem from them now.

President Musgrave: Well, what happened was that they withdrew their application for two separate reasons. One reason being that Mr. Jeffers found a number of problems with the application and they were going to work on that a little bit more, and then the second reason is that the Town of Darmstadt doesn’t have an agreement with the Commissioners asking the Commissioners to oversee these matters for Darmstadt, and the County Attorney is going to work on that.

Bob Kerney: Okay.

President Musgrave: You may want to make your comments regarding the problems that you see with drainage to Mr. Jeffers should indeed he come to the point where we’re reviewing this matter in the future.

Bob Kerney: They have two lakes on that property–

President Musgrave: Can I... may I ask that you make those comments after the meeting?

Bob Kerney: Oh, afterwards. Thank you.

Bill Jeffers: I’ll meet with you after the meeting, Mr. Kerney. Thanks for coming.

President Musgrave: Thank you very much for coming. Any other matters to bring before the Drainage Board this evening?

Commissioner Crouch: Motion to adjourn.

Commissioner Nix: Second.

President Musgrave: All those in favor?

Commissioners: Aye.

President Musgrave: The motion carries.

(The meeting was adjourned at 4:15 p.m.)

         Those in Attendance:

         Cheryl Musgrave            Bill Nix                            Suzanne Crouch

         Bill Jeffers                       Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.          Madelyn Grayson

         Chris Weil                       Bob Kerney                     Others Unidentified

         Members of Media

VANDERBURGH COUNTY

DRAINAGE BOARD

Cheryl A.W. Musgrave, President

Bill Nix, Vice President

Suzanne M. Crouch, Member

Recorded and transcribed by Madelyn Grayson.