VANDERBURGH COUNTY

DRAINAGE BOARD

JULY 20, 2010

The Vanderburgh County Drainage Board met in session this 20^th day of July, 2010 at 6:55 p.m. in room 301 of the Civic Center Complex with President Troy Tornatta presiding.

President Tornatta: Alright, we’re going to immediately start the Vanderburgh County Drainage Board meeting, Tuesday, July 20, 2010. It’s about five till seven.

President Tornatta: Motion to approve the previous meeting’s minutes.

Commissioner Winnecke: So moved.

Commissioner Melcher: Second.

President Tornatta: A motion and a second. All those in favor say aye.

All Commissioners: Aye.

(Motion approved 3-0)

President Tornatta: Bill, Green River Estates/English Way, final drainage plan.

Bill Jeffers: Right, Bill Jeffers, Vanderburgh County Surveyor, acting as technical advisor to the Drainage Board, recommends approval of Green River Estates/English Way final drainage plan, the same construction drawings that you approved as street plans under your Commissioners meeting a week or two ago.

Commissioner Winnecke: So moved.

Commissioner Melcher: Second.

President Tornatta: A motion and a second. All those in favor say aye.

All Commissioners: Aye.

(Motion approved 3-0)

Bill Jeffers: The second item on the agenda is discussion of Mesker Park Drive/Allens Lane/Leisure Living West some citizen concerns about drainage. Is there anyone here tonight that came to speak to that matter. Okay, as a prelude to the comments they may make, there are two residents present tonight that indicated they are going to make comments. Basically, Leisure Living West is on Allens Lane between St. Joe Avenue and Mesker Park Drive. These are the Leisure Living West apartment units as were built prior to this 2005 photograph. Subsequently there were four more units built as shown by the red outlines overlaid on the 2005 photograph, those have been built since 2005. There was a natural open watercourse that ran down the property line between Leisure Living West, which has an Allen Road address, and the property shown by their names of the property owners on Mesker Park Drive, there was a natural drainage course that ran southward directly on the property line and then diverged from the property line and southeast over to Locust Creek. That was an open ditch. There is an extensive subsurface drain tile system that serves all of these properties that used to be a farm, and that same farm, the owner owned all of this property, Leisure Living West and all of the properties that you see on that screen. There is a subsurface drainage tile system that was installed beginning in the 1920's, it’s comprised of clay tile, much of it was put in by hand, either spaded in by hand or chisel plowed in using a mule. So, it’s very old, but as the properties were sub-divided and homes began to be built along Mesker Park Drive first, and then along Allen Lane later, many of these homes are, I suppose 70 to, 25 to 70 years old, bit by bit some of the drainage from the homes, the downspouts, the basement drains, the foundation drains I guess you would say, some of the curtain drains were tied into this extensive subsurface clay tile system, and all of that drainage outleted into this ditch along about in this area that I’m indicating with the laser. Some of it (Inaudible) into the ditch over here when this was still farmed. So, if we would consider that that drain tile system that was originally placed, essentially to drain farm ground so that it would be farmable, plowable, if we would consider that it became a mutual drainage system for the homes knowingly. Everyone knew that they were tapping into a drain tile system, and everyone knew that it ran through each other’s properties and they maintained it the best they could, and they knew that it outleted down here in this ditch, that we could consider it a mutual drain, if that’s the wishes of the Board to make that determination. Okay, now, Leisure Living West, the owner at the time hired an engineer to do the design work for the drainage plan that we approved, and the drainage plan sufficiently took care of all of the surface drainage from the project itself, along with all of the surface drainage that comes off of these various, numerous individual residential lots. It all arrived down to the same spot we’re talking about, over the surface, and drained through this ditch. The drainage plan that we approved several years ago provided a series of inlets, and those are shown in some pictures we can go to.....there’s, scan down some.

Brenda Jeffers: Which one?

Bill Jeffers: Oh, there’s one. Okay, that’s a typical inlet. You can see there’s a drainage swale between the residential properties on the right of this picture to the west and the Leisure Living homes to the east, on your left, there’s a swale there and in that swale is a series of inlets that picks up the surface water. Unfortunately, the drainage plans did indicate the subsurface drain tile system, because it was assumed by the engineers and by me, originally, that that subsurface farm drain tile system was defunct. It was built in the early 1900's, mid 1900's, it was a clay tile system, those are just little chunks of four inch clay tile butted together, over a period of time they separate, become useless as far as....and it’s no longer a farm. So, we just assumed it was not in use. However, we have found out, as I explained earlier, it is in use. So, what’s happening is some of that, some of the property owners you will hear from tonight, and their neighbors, are experiencing some problems on their property because the clay tile was cut through and interrupted by the drainage system placed in Leisure Living. When this was discovered, I asked the engineer working for the contractor who was finishing the project and who had taken over from the previous developer to go back and see if he could remedy this situation, and he put in a French drain system that intercepts some of this seepage and underground water and attempts to put it into these inlets. There’s some cutouts in the back of these inlet boxes and a series of plastic tile is trying to pick up what they cut through. That is not operating sufficiently. This week early, I think it was Monday morning, I believe or was it Friday, Friday maybe, I can’t remember exactly now, but met out there with Mike Wathen, the neighborhood property owners and we looked at the backs of all these boxes. This is an area that’s grown up in weeds simply because it’s so wet and untenable that the property owner can’t maintain it as he would wish. That’s what we’re trying to correct. We looked inside the inlet boxes and we noticed that it’s not picking up any water, and it had rained several times a day or two, and I think even the day we went out there it had rained that night. You could tell it wasn’t working properly. So, our best solution that Mike Wathen and I came up with was to attempt to convince the property owner of, the current property owner of Leisure Living West to hire or instruct the contractor he used to go back and provide stub outs from the backside of these inlets to pick up the three or possibly four known subsurface drain tiles and provide a stubbed out access to the back of those boxes for these individual property owners to reconnect their drain tile system to. Now, once we do that it’s my plan to get that done and then those, there are, this system is in disrepair, so, even after we provide the stub outs, and if the property owners connect to those stub outs, there are still a lot of problems up through the entire area where tiles have separated and they will have to do some of their own work.

President Tornatta: Bill?

Bill Jeffers: But, basically what I’m after is to provide the access to the inlets, allow them to hook up and then they can fix their system as they wish.

President Tornatta: Okay, do you have that like in a recommendation form for, you know, from top to bottom, kind of how you see it?

Bill Jeffers: No, I haven’t really worked that out yet.

President Tornatta: Okay.

Bill Jeffers: I would like to talk with the engineer that works for the contractor–

President Tornatta: Okay.

Bill Jeffers: – that put the drainage system in, and we’re going to have to probe out each of those lines and find out how deep they are so we would know whether or not these three inlets are actually capable of receiving the (Inaudible).

President Tornatta: Okay, well, the reason why I asked that was this type of in-depth, because, I mean, this has obviously got multi-layers to it, it sure would be nice to bring that, and, obviously we’ll hear it from the individuals.

Bill Jeffers: Right.

President Tornatta: But, it would be nice to bring that to us so we would kind of have that tangible task in front of us–

Bill Jeffers: Right.

President Tornatta: –because, I mean, I still think there’s probably some unknowns out there that we need to look into.

Bill Jeffers: Very true.

President Tornatta: You know, we’re hearing about it right now, but without those unknowns, I mean, it’s kind of tough to grab, put our hands around it, so to speak.

Bill Jeffers: Well, I guess, why I’m taking this tact is because we know a problem exists, we know what caused it, we know, we hope we know what will fix it, but in the meantime the property owners who are experiencing poor drainage have two legal options, one is to file an obstruction petition to reopen this ditch, okay? Two options with us, file an obstruction petition, we have to go through a hearing, and I don’t need to go into detail on that, or to file a complaint with the Drainage Board that the plan that was approved by the Drainage Board was insufficient and that certain terms of the drainage code was violated by not showing the subsurface drainage system. I want to avoid that because now we’re put in an adversarial position. You and I are, and they and I are, and they and you are, etcetera. Then their third option would be a legal option to go against the property owner, who I don’t believe at this time, the current property owner, should be held responsible for acts of a previous cause.

President Tornatta: Right, and what I would like to, I tell you what, let’s–

Bill Jeffers: They wanted to come tonight, and, so I just wanted to give you–

President Tornatta: Yeah.

Bill Jeffers: –I wanted to give what I gave, I’ve given it, and I’ll turn it over to them.

President Tornatta: Okay. Come on up. That’s fine. State your name if you would.

Bob Jeude: Bob Jeude, 3011 Mesker Park Drive.

President Tornatta: Spell your last name.

Bob Jeude: J-e-u-d-e. Notice that it’s spelled up here.

President Tornatta: Okay, got it, got it, got it.

Bob Jeude: It’s J-e-u-d-e.

Bruce Spaulding: My name is Bruce Spaulding, 3011, I mean, 3007 Mesker Park Drive.

President Tornatta: Okay, and you’re coming because you’re getting some, you’re getting the water back on your property?

Bob Jeude: Yes.

President Tornatta: Okay.

Bob Jeude: The, I, basically, Bruce and I have been representing multiple neighbors in this area. There are more involved properties that actually aren’t on this drawing. I was actually representing them, a lot of these being elderly people–

President Tornatta: Right.

Bob Jeude: –that weren’t sure exactly what approach–

President Tornatta: Sure.

Bob Jeude: –to take. Bruce and I both have been in contact with the contractor. This all started on April 27, 2009, after we noticed the development of the ends of our property staying extremely wet, and as he mentioned there are some problem areas on my property and my father’s property line that we–

President Tornatta: That weren’t there before?

Bob Jeude: There was a little bit of a situation, but that one particular area, actually water backed up into this field tile and started coming up into this area that needed work.

President Tornatta: Okay.

Bob Jeude: That’s, and the fact that the surface water was staying more than it did in the past when it didn’t actually go off...this actually, as I said, began April 27, 2009.

President Tornatta: Okay.

Bob Jeude: Then, the early part of June, Mr. Spaulding spoke to the contractor, he might be able to elaborate on what their outlook was, initially they said on November 3, 2009, we met with Sheffer Construction, the engineer, and also the main, Randy Sheffer, they agreed this would be taken care, they would tie lines in. If we located them they would tie them in and also install French drains. So, I went back through and crudely, multiple times, (Inaudible) this area, marking where we felt the lines were, and nothing was done until June, the early part of June when he spoke to Mr. Sheffer. He can elaborate a little more on what they actually said.

Bruce Spaulding: He just told us that we could, he would loan us his (Inaudible), trencher and stuff and we could do all that work ourself. We’re not sure we should be responsible for something we didn’t cause.

President Tornatta: Right.

Bruce Spaulding: I mean, we do have, obviously, where we can tell it’s been backing up, we do have a little bit of issues ourself that we have to take care of. I mean, I know I have a broken drain tile, or field tile. I know I have to repair that, but with the ground so wet it’s pretty hard for me to get in there and, you know, do anything. The water, I’ve been there 24, excuse me, 24 years, surface water has always got out and the surface water does get out again, but it’s that subsurface drainage that it just stays in that one area where I’ve got the open tile. It has eroded it to where I can tell where that water is at all times. It keeps the ground wet. I don’t know, they took some pictures the other day, you can see our ground is extremely–

President Tornatta: Right.

Bruce Spaulding: – green compared to the rest of the area.

President Tornatta: Sure.

Bruce Spaulding: So, you can tell there’s a lot of subsurface water in that area, as she’s shown there.

President Tornatta: Is, I just wonder if there’s an opportunity that, and we would have to get Mr. Jeffers blessing on this, but he normally works well with several different sides, and that is to find out some of the issues with the properties that you all represent, to have a meeting with Mr. Sheffer to talk about what essentially he could do to remedy the problem and see if we couldn’t come, somehow meet in the middle where everyone’s problems get addressed. Obviously you had a little bit of issue before, so there’s a little bit on you–

Bob Jeude: Right.

President Tornatta: –but if there’s something on Randy and something that we could point out that would satisfy the problem without going to a big–

Bob Jeude: Sure.

President Tornatta: –full blown hearing, obviously that would be a better setup.

Bob Jeude: I mean, that’s basically what, like we said, we’ve been talking for over a year now, and he keeps promising, and I don’t know if it’s his right to promise it or not, but he’s been promising to fix it, and he keeps saying wait until it dries. Well, I don’t know if it’s ever going to dry completely.

President Tornatta: Right. I mean, is that, would that be a move forward for you if we were able to try and get some type of talks between everyone? Obviously, Mr. Jeffers goes out there and assessed the scope of the needs of that drainage.

Bob Jeude: We were looking towards the fact that he said, okay, on November 3, 2009 this will be taken care of. So, a short time after that I had areas on my property line, my father’s line and the adjoining property lines, we realized we had some issues, had that all backhoed up, ready to go in, until this thing was draining we couldn’t justify tying these things in and then all it’s going to do is back up even worse than what it did. We’re prepared to go and make repairs on our property lines. Bruce’s holes are there, and like I say–

President Tornatta: Okay.

Bob Jeude: –and at least this was letting it (Inaudible) pressure someplace, and the interest also, the early part of June I talked to one of the neighbors, I actually apologize to you guys for the fact that, you know, this is weeded, it was a messy area back there, and I apologize for the fact of that and told them what the situation was, and, you know, they were trying to get this corrected. One of the residents themself also stated that in heavy rains his backyard floods, a resident of Leisure Living, which I realize is second nature, but there are some problems there. They are unhappy. I think they are a little bit leery to say something against their developer or whatever. Kind of, in actually looking through this property and witching it, it looks like these, basically the property lines came down, tied into a common line that opened into that ditch. So, that there was a common line that this actual field tile would open into the ditch–

President Tornatta: Right.

Bob Jeude: – that’s basically what they were saying. We located it, tied into the storm sewer that they had put in their situation–

President Tornatta: Okay.

Bob Jeude: I think the–

President Tornatta: Well, maybe, maybe we can come to some type of terms on that and get a timeline.

Bob Jeude: In witching that with, I mean, I realize that’s pretty primitive, but I haven’t found any better way of doing it, actually with the coat hangars, if you’re familiar with the procedure, if there’s a better way to do it we’d be glad....if there’s some other way to do it, if there’s some way to do it, but all indications are that there, these lines....we had it looking like, I told them the other day it looked like an Easter egg hunt out there with all the flags I had in there marking everything. But, it ties into a common line that went down, opened into this ditch, and then when that area was closed off then that’s when we started having problems.

President Tornatta: Is that a doable plan.

Commissioner Winnecke: I think it’s fine.

President Tornatta: Okay, if it’s okay with you I would like to direct Mr. Jeffers to try and, once again, find a happy medium. Okay?

Bob Jeude: If I may interject, I believe in looking at the drawings there’s another three or four units across the development at the end of what the existing buildings are now, these are at the ends of some other property, this could open up the same situation. In all practicality there’s the same basic system in witching, the property tiles come down–

President Tornatta: Right.

Bob Jeude: – just making you aware that I think this could be another issue in the next section of the development.

President Tornatta: Right.

Bob Jeude: I think Bruce will agree to that–

President Tornatta: I think that’s probably going to be taken up when we address the one issue.

Bob Jeude: Yeah, we understand, you know, there was no indication that these lines were there, it was probably 100 years when they were put in. We understand there was no indication they were there, and once it was identified that, you know, the problem that multiple things have been...my perimeter drain, I had a new field bed put, some of the perimeter drains, curtain drains with permission of the Health Department, tied into these, (Inaudible) different, they’re all lines we’ve been using and they’ve created some problems. But, until this property development was started everything worked fine. I mean, we had, like I said, we’ve got a couple of places on ours that will be resolved, but once this construction started then it just exacerbated the whole situation.

President Tornatta: Okay. Thank you then.

Bob Jeude: Thank you.

Bill Jeffers: Do you pronounce your name Jeude?

Bob Jeude: Jeude.

Bill Jeffers: Jeude? I want to make sure I pronounce that name correctly. That’s a proud German name, Jeude.

President Tornatta: Alright.

Bill Jeffers: Yes, I’m glad that, by the way Mr. Jeude has an extensive chronological record of how all of this came about. It’s been very helpful in discussion with him, and I really just wanted all of this to be on the record tonight, especially because in a little over two years I’ll be gone and, hopefully, not in less time, but definitely in two and a half years. I want it on the record because development is slow right now, but when they do go to this next section, I’m telling you right now, on the record, that the approved drainage plan that exists today will have to be modified to account for an emergency overflow through this area that will be developed. Can we see the map again? This old ditch channel will have to be redefined on the surface as an emergency overflow to allow the water out through this next development phase, and as Mr. Jeude pointed out, these other houses may have drain tiles that connect back here, they will definitely have to be shown on the next set of drainage plans as a modification so that we don’t repeat our, this mistake that I made in my review process.

President Tornatta: Any other questions on this one?

President Tornatta: Alright, moving on, Evansville Health Campus/Cherry Hill Road concerns.

Bill Jeffers: Okay, I sent an e-mail today that had this letter attached to it–

President Tornatta: Thank you, guys.

Bill Jeffers: –verifying that Mr. Effinger, Charles L. is that it?

President Tornatta: Luke.

Bill Jeffers: Charles Luke Effinger at 523 Cherry Hill Road had a legitimate concern, and so does his neighbor regarding some....this is the campus project over here for the Evansville Health Campus, there was an old creek that ran through there draining Mr. Effinger’s property along with everything out there in that subdivision that runs down through this watershed. I think the drainage plan is sufficient as it was approved. If it were put in correctly and maintained correctly, during an extreme high water event the water that wants to pass through this old channel would now pass through a large detention basin, and in worst case scenario it would back up in this very low area, it might back up ten feet onto the Effinger property waiting to get through there. The property used to have a lake on it, so when, this picture is from 2005, there used to be a pond there, so, at that time that the drainage plan was approved we foresaw that a little water might back up around the outlet of this lake. But, the way that the current project is being maintained, there’s a haul road across there at a higher elevation, and, so, yes, as I explain in here Mr. Effinger’s concerns are justified. If we had a severe rain storm it might back water way up on his property, much closer to his home than the plan would have allowed if it was put in correctly. So, with your permission I’ll send that letter out. I don’t know if Mr. Effinger received a copy of it. Is he here tonight?

President Tornatta: He’s not here.

Bill Jeffers: Is there anyone here to speak to this at all? I guess, then I’ll just ask your permission to forward this to the owners of the property who need to make some corrections.

Commissioner Winnecke: So moved.

Commissioner Melcher: Second.

President Tornatta: A motion and a second. All those in favor say aye.

All Commissioners: Aye.

(Motion approved 3-0)

President Tornatta: Thank you, Bill.

Bill Jeffers: Apparently, Mr. Effinger got a copy and is satisfied at this point in time, but he did indicate that he might want to come down here tonight.

President Tornatta: Okay.

Bill Jeffers: Does anyone need a copy of that letter? Madelyn does, I’m sure. Here’s the original.

President Tornatta: Okay.

President Tornatta: Ditch claims?

Bill Jeffers: Okay, I’ve placed what’s known in the professional world as a gob of claims on your desk over there. They are all in order, with paperwork affixed, signed by the County Surveyor, with a recommendation to approve the ditch claims.

Commissioner Winnecke: Motion to approve as presented.

Commissioner Melcher: Second.

President Tornatta: A motion and a second. All those in favor say aye.

All Commissioners: Aye.

(Motion approved 3-0)

President Tornatta: Any other business? That’s the extent from me.

President Melcher: Any public comment at this point? Come on up.

Herman Bear: My name is Herman Bear, and I’m at 2645 Waterstone Drive.

President Tornatta: Okay.

Herman Bear: I’ve been at this residence for ten years, and there’s a situation behind me at, on Winfield Drive. I don’t know whether this has come up before or not, but in the drainage ditch just to the south of my property there’s been a lot of changes been made that I understand have not been approved by the Drainage Board.

President Tornatta: Okay.

Herman Bear: I don’t know whether you’re aware of that or not.

President Tornatta: Probably not. That’s where we will actually take down that information and get it to Mr. Jeffers at first. Then, if he sees that it needs to go somewhere else, then he will move it to that area.

Herman Bear: Well, I understand that, oh, you’re here.

Bill Jeffers: How ya doing?

Herman Bear: Pretty good. How are you?

Bill Jeffers: Fine. Nice to see you.

Herman Bear: Yeah. I understand that there was a memo–

Bill Jeffers: Yeah, I talked to–

Herman Bear: Okay, there was memo out on May 25^th stating that the encroachment of a fence and so forth, modification of the drainage ditch, which is due south of me, you did not approve it initially on May 25^th, and then there was a June 7^th memo which was put out that for some reason you changed your mind and approved it. But, anyway, the work has already been done back there, with the exception of the fence going back, encroaching into the drainage area. So, what happened was I called down to the office, and I got a hold of a Kristin Comer–

President Tornatta: Okay.

Herman Bear: Okay?

President Tornatta: Yeah.

Herman Bear: Now, I asked her if this had all been approved by the Drainage Board, she didn’t know off hand, but she called back in about five minutes and said, no, this work had not been approved. In the meantime, all the ditch had been changed, and the fence people were getting ready to put the fence into the drainage area. So, she said, call the Sheriff immediately. Well, I was a little reluctant, but that’s what she told me to do, and I did. The Sheriff Deputy came out, this was on July 6^th, he looked at it and he stopped the fence people from coming into the drainage area, and he told me and he said he would tell the owners of the property the same thing, that all that had to be put back the way it originally was. Okay, it stopped the fence from going in, and also all the work that had been done in that area, be replaced, be put back where it was. So, that hasn’t been done, that part of it has not been done. I think they’re waiting for approval of the fence to go, to be placed in the drainage area. Now, backing up just a little bit, I know from living there for ten years that that ditch fills completely up with water when you get a three or four inch rain in say three or four hours, something like that, this just happened in Kentucky, in Hopkinsville last Thursday–

President Tornatta: Uh-huh.

Herman Bear: –so, it does happen. So, I’ve seen it three times in ten years, so, you can say every three or four years you’re going to get one of these situations.

President Tornatta: Uh-huh.

Herman Bear: Now, so far this drainage ditch has handled that without spilling over into my property or my neighbor’s property, Bill Miles over here–

President Tornatta: Uh-huh.

Herman Bear: –but, with the addition of all of the houses out there, and the pools and patios, and the fences that are there, that so far as I know are legal, in other words they come down to the easement line, the south easement line of the ditch, they do hinder the flow of water in that area, to some degree. Now, what we’re concerned about is that if a fence is put clear down in that area, that’s going to be much more of a hindrance to the flow of water and we think, under those conditions, which is not really extreme, you know, as compared to what happened in Nashville–

President Tornatta: Uh-huh.

Herman Bear: –earlier this year–

President Tornatta: Uh-huh.

Herman Bear: –that that water is going to come over and there’s going to be a huge liability involved here with all sorts of plants and vegetation and so forth that we had placed in that area.

President Tornatta: Okay. Herman, let me hold you for one second–

Herman Bear: Sure.

President Tornatta: –and let me hear Bill’s explanation of what’s going on, and then we’ll come right back to you. Okay?

Madelyn Grayson: Hey, Bill?

Herman Bear: I have pictures here.

President Tornatta: Okay, that’s fine.

Madelyn Grayson: Bill, before you start, let me change the CD one more time.

Bill Jeffers: Okay.

Herman Bear: Okay.

Bill Jeffers: Can you give me your address? Your address?

Herman Bear: 2645 Waterstone.

Bill Jeffers: And, what is your name?

Herman Bear: Herman Bear. B-e-a-r. Just like the animal, bear.

Bill Jeffers: Do you have a picture of your backyard?

Herman Bear: Well, I’ve got a series of pictures.

Bill Jeffers: Of your backyard?

Herman Bear: No, not of my backyard.

Madelyn Grayson: Okay, we’re ready whenever you are.

Bill Miles: Yeah, I’ve got what it looks like when that swale gets stopped up. That was before, that’s his yard right there. I’m over here. His yard was plum full of water, until the developer, when they developed—

Bill Jeffers: Wait a minute. Okay, wait a minute.

Bill Miles: –I’ve been out there 13 years.

Bill Jeffers: First of all, I need to keep my thoughts straight. You live right directly behind?

Herman Bear: That is correct.

Bill Jeffers: Okay, I’m going to start at the back, at the end of his discussion and work the other way. His, Mr. Herman Bear of 2645 Waterstone, I believe lives north and just behind this subject property. Is your yard not completely landscaped within the drainage easement?

Herman Bear: Part of it is.

Bill Jeffers: With rocks and trees and–

Herman Bear: Well, yeah, there was a tree line–

Bill Jeffers: And, do you have, have you filled out one of these encroachment agreements with the Drainage Board for permission to put all of that improvement in your drainage easement?

Herman Bear: Uh, not–

Bill Jeffers: Or, you just did it?

Herman Bear: Comb’s Landscaping did it.

Bill Jeffers: But, did they, do you have one of these agreements with the Drainage Board?

Herman Bear: No.

Bill Jeffers: Okay. So, what we have there, I wasn’t prepared with pictures, or I would have them for you to look at, so, it’s going to be kind of hard to describe, but Mr. Bear has a drainage swale on his side of the property line that carries water from his section of Windemere Farms, which I believe is Section Two, and then over here in the subject property owned by Christopher Lautner and Sarah–

Herman Bear: Schuler.

Bill Jeffers: –Schuler, they’re in Section Three and they have a separate drainage swale that runs through their backyard. They come down and join at the northwest corner of the Schuler property, which is the southwest corner of the Bear property, and then all of the water from both swales join together, go into a pipe, run out to the street system. So, all of the water that’s coming from the Schuler side stays separate from all of the water coming from the Bear side, until it joins at that corner and goes immediately into an inlet. All Ms., all the Schuler’s wanted to do here was to put a swimming pool in. The swimming pool and all of the backfill from the swimming pool is outside the drainage easement. They’ve already done that. Then, they wanted to put their fence in, that’s required by code to go around a swimming pool, they have to put a fence in, rather than crowd that drainage easement with the fence, they wanted to go across the drainage easement and put it all the way out to the property line, as shown on their drawing. The drawing was prepared by a professional engineer, Jim Farney. It shows the fence with wire mesh underneath the fence to allow the water to go through at the southwest corner. Their lot, coincidentally, is at a place in the drainage system where all of the water from the extreme east side of their lot flows eastward, away from Mr. Bear, and behind this gentleman’s property to a separate pick up point. All the water from the east line through the rest of their yard flows westward, as I described earlier, so, there is not really that much of a watershed going into this swale. The swale is almost two feet deep. I intend to instruct them to keep the swale sufficiently deep to handle all of the water. This is the form that we normally take for permission to encroach a drainage easement. What they’ve done in the easement itself is to put a French drain in the bottom, and, unfortunately, whoever did that put the two outlets for the subsurface drain eastward, and I instructed Ms. Schuler yesterday to redirect those, have the contractor redirect them to the west the way they’re supposed to go. I did not realize this form now had a certificate of insurance in compliance with our requirement, and has been delivered to the meeting by, through the County Auditor, so, it is ready to go. If we would like to put this off until your next meeting on August 10^th to discuss this in more detail with the neighboring property owners, who apparently have a problem, but themselves, at least one of them has encroached an easement without this document, we can go out there and discuss it in detail with the landscapers, the contractors, the pool contractor, the fence contractor, etcetera, and I’ll have the engineer on site to explain his drawings. But, I really didn’t see that much of a problem with it. I thought it would work out just fine. There’s many fences out there that are in drainage easements without permission. There’s a fence right next door that’s rotting away because they put it down in the ditch and put the boards down against the ground. This is what I cautioned Ms. Schuler against doing. There’s a long string of e-mails back and forth between the Schuler’s and I arriving at this point. Previously the developer and the homeowners association of Windemere said they didn’t want anything in any of the easements, and that’s what I maintained for all of these years. I never brought one of these to you for this subdivision before, ever, because the homeowners association said they didn’t want any fences or anything in any of the easements. All of a sudden Mike Reeder is now the homeowners association president and he told Ms. Schuler it was okay, so, I proceeded.

Herman Bear: (Inaudible).

Commissioner Melcher: Bill, do you need a motion to do what you just said? Come back on our next meeting?

Bill Jeffers: If that’s the desirable thing to do, or to continue listening, that’s fine, whichever you want to do.

Commissioner Melcher: Well, I think, if we can solve it, we might as well wait until the next.....is that okay?

President Tornatta: Guys, the problem is, we get this fresh, we don’t have any idea of this property from another. Without having recommendations of the Surveyor and seeing the property, there’s no way that we can make a decision tonight.

Herman Bear: I do have pictures here.

President Tornatta: Okay.

Herman Bear: Of the work that’s been done, if you want to see them?

President Tornatta: Oh, absolutely. You can bring them up, absolutely, but we’ll have to keep them. Are you okay with that?

Herman Bear: Sure.

President Tornatta: Okay.

Bill Miles: Here, give them these.

Herman Bear: I do have a short (Inaudible).

President Tornatta: That’s fine, yeah, and what we would like to do is we would like to be able to look at this and then ask questions–

Herman Bear: Sure.

President Tornatta: –once we’ve had time to digest what you’re asking for.

Herman Bear: Sure.

President Tornatta: Okay?

Herman Bear: Our only concern is when we get a three or four inch rain–

President Tornatta: Right.

Herman Bear: –then this water, from what I have observed, will come over the (Inaudible) berm–

Madelyn Grayson: Mr. Bear, will you make your comments at the microphone so that we can get it on the record?

Bill Miles: This is what it looks like before they approved the swales.

President Tornatta: Okay.

Bill Miles: That’s his backyard.

President Tornatta: Okay.

Bill Miles: Nobody wants that. I don’t care if these people have a (Inaudible) fence–

President Tornatta: Right.

Bill Miles: –I can care less, but when you take a ditch that’s two foot deep–

Madelyn Grayson: If you don’t make your comments on the microphone, we can’t get it on the record.

Herman Bear: Okay, come on back.

President Tornatta: Alright. Alright.

Bill Miles: I’ve lived there since 1997–

President Tornatta: Yeah.

Bill Miles: –when they developed Sections One and Two, which Mr. Bear’s in One, Two don’t start until it gets on the other side of the road, and then the section you are talking about is Three and Four. So, I’ve seen it all. We never had a problem whatsoever. I live, his neighbor, I have nothing in my swale, come out and take a look, nothing but grass. If it’s dry you could mow it. Every time, when they first developed it, and I give you that picture showing his backyard and my yard, until, Dan Buck’s the one that done it, until he was able to put a swale in there and get the water where it would run, I can remember where the breaking point was, but we had a surveyor out who surveyed it, that we paid for, and there’s very little drain to either direction, but it worked, as long as there’s nothing that went in that. But, then over time when they kept building houses, everybody knows the more concrete that you put down, the more water you’re going to have. I have nothing against that. That’s fine.

President Tornatta: Uh-huh.

Bill Miles: But, we haven’t had anything happen except in the last two or three years, and that’s when people started working their way down toward that. Now, this lady I have nothing against her whatsoever. She’s not even my neighbor. I don’t even know her. She could be her. I don’t know what she looks like. So, I’m not criticizing her, she can have her pool, but who gave her permission to put two four inch....we went back and talked to the contractor, to put two four inch drainage tiles in the bottom that ain’t going to catch anything because it’s not up high enough to come out. Then they kept throwing rock in. I went back with Mr. Bear and I talked to the contractor which was Lindauer pools, don’t worry about it fellas, he said, the highest point is going to be next to the property you talked about where the fence is–

President Tornatta: Right.

Bill Miles: – draining that way. He said, we’ll never have it any higher than that. Well, he told a bare faced lie because if you go out there now, the river gravel is all the way level with the top, you can see on the pictures, with the top of that berm.

President Tornatta: Right.

Bill Miles: So, he put two foot of gravel in. Now, anybody knows that if you take and fill in a ditch with the volume, you put rock in there, water will go through rock, but the volume isn’t going to be there. It’s going to come over that into his yard. As far as them getting approval, Dan Buck, Chris Combs built that house, he didn’t build it, I built mine, when they built it and they done all that work back there. That man doesn’t have a tree, those trees were the tree line. He didn’t plant those trees. They were there. That man didn’t plant anything, except up on top of the berm. What’s that hurt? He’s not down in the ditch. There’s rocks just like we concreted it. Go look at it. You can’t accuse them about it, because that would be a lie. He didn’t do anything wrong, but these people have, with your permission. That’s wrong.

Commissioner Melcher: Well, I think we just need to find out about it–

Bill Miles: It’s not a problem today–

President Tornatta: Yeah.

Bill Miles: –but, if it starts raining tonight, he’s going to have water in his house.

President Tornatta: Right.

Bill Miles: Who’s going to pay for that?

President Tornatta: Right, and we’re going to have to look–

Bill Miles: It will be you people.

President Tornatta: I understand. I understand. We’re going to have to look into it, okay? But, we’re not going to be able to make a decision tonight.

Bill Miles: But, we need somebody to look at it.

President Tornatta: Absolutely, and we’ll do that.

Herman Bear: One other comment, the thing that concerns me here is I was told when I moved there that there was to be no obstruction whatsoever in the drainage ditch.

President Tornatta: Yeah.

Herman Bear: Okay?

President Tornatta: Uh-huh.

Herman Bear: Now, if something like this was approved, then that’s going to set a precedent here, really in Vanderburgh County eventually, where it’s going to really aggravate this type of problem.

President Tornatta: Have you met Mike Reeder?

Herman Bear: I have talked to him on the phone.

President Tornatta: Okay.

Herman Bear: And, he told me that he sent an e-mail to Mrs. Schuler–

President Tornatta: Uh-huh.

Herman Bear: –which stated that, okay, go ahead and put a fence in the easement area, in the drainage ditch, but if it entered the flow of water in any way, that fence comes out.

President Tornatta: Okay.

Herman Bear: That’s number one. Number two, I asked Mike if anything had been discussed about changing the problem of the drainage ditch, modifying it in any way, he said that was never discussed.

President Tornatta: Okay.

Herman Bear: Okay? Alright.

President Tornatta: Alright.

Herman Bear: Thank you.

President Tornatta: Thank you.

Bill Miles: Thanks people.

President Tornatta: Anybody else?

Commissioner Melcher: Did you want a motion on that?

President Tornatta: No, we’ve made direction. We don’t need a motion.

Commissioner Melcher: Okay.

Madelyn Grayson: Bill, are we going to address the other drainage easement encroachment agreement?

Bill Jeffers: I’m done.

Madelyn Grayson: Okay.

President Tornatta: Okay. With that being said–

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Excuse me, we’ve got that other one for the other property.

Bill Jeffers: Okay.

Commissioner Winnecke: Motion to adjourn.

Commissioner Melcher: Second.

President Tornatta: Adjourned.

Bill Jeffers: Okay, well.

(The meeting was adjourned at 7:43 p.m.)

Those in Attendance:

Troy Tornatta                            Stephen Melcher                      Lloyd Winnecke

Bill Jeffers                                 Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.                    Madelyn Grayson

Brenda Jeffers                          Bob Jeude                                Bruce Spaulding

Herman Bear                            Bill Miles                                   Others Unidentified

Members of Media

VANDERBURGH COUNTY

DRAINAGE BOARD

Troy Tornatta, President

Stephen Melcher, Vice President

Lloyd Winnecke, Member

(Recorded and transcribed by Madelyn Grayson.)