` VANDERBURGH COUNTY
DRAINAGE BOARD
JULY 15, 2008
The Vanderburgh County Drainage Board met in session this 15th day of July, 2008
at 5:54 p.m. in room 301 of the Civic Center Complex with President Troy Tornatta
presiding.
President Tornatta: We’ll start Drainage Board immediately. Mr. Jeffers?
Bill Jeffers: Good afternoon, President Tornatta.
President Tornatta: Oh, no, okay.
Madelyn Grayson: I don’t have the July 1st minutes completed.
President Tornatta: We have an issue on the minutes. Let’s open up, Tuesday, July
15, 2008 Vanderburgh County Drainage meeting. We will not have minutes to
approve. So, we’re on to you Mr. Jeffers. Welcome.
Report on Jerry Arnett Petition
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Bill Jeffers: Thank you. We’ll move on to a report, my final report on the Jerry Arnett
petition. Mr. Arnett could not be here tonight. There may be one or two residents in
the audience. I would like to give you a very brief slide show, showing you the vast
improvements that have been made in the drain. I visited the site, both on Sunday,
after Saturday afternoon and evening’s rainfall, and again on Monday. I walked right
down the middle of the ditch from one end to the other taking photographs that
clearly display that the ditch is free of obstructions, and is capable of handling the
flow of water from that rainfall.
President Tornatta: Wow!
Bill Jeffers: Starting at Mrs. Brassard’s address, 3213, you can look down and see
all the way down this tunnel of vegetation to the other end of the ditch. The next
slide, I’m standing right at the Brassard-Schutte property line, and, again, you can
see clearly right down the ditch. This is what it looked like two weeks ago. So, you
can see there’s been a vast improvement between that time of my last report and
this week. Walking on down the ditch, we’ll just click through them real fast, the
Schutte property, clear; Jewell Drake, Mr. Drake, I think Jewell is his mother, and he
went out there and did a wonderful job of cleaning this. It looked about the same as
the Schutte property the week before. This is the Sartore property, again, has been
cleared. The Brown property has always been clear, looks wonderful. Shrewsberry,
and I apologize, this lady’s name is misspelled in the tax record. This is the correct
spelling of her name. I think I may have had an incorrect spelling last time, due to
the tax record error. Again, there were rocks and so forth, you can go ahead and
show the rocks. This is all the rocks that came out of her property, stacked up on
the ditch bank. So, you can see that was a monumental amount of work done by
someone. Gibbs property, again, it’s been cleared. The Martin property, cleared on
the left bank, a little bit of vegetation is still remaining on the right bank. It’s mostly
weeds, nothing real heavy, water can make it through the ditch. Then, the last
property before we enter the pipe, the Helmerich property, you can see the pipe,
someone has put a grate up against the face of the pipe, after cleaning the ditch, I
suppose to address those things that the lady from 3101 was talking about, a fire
extinguisher and so forth from getting into the pipe. Someone’s trying to prevent that.
Here’s what it looked like two weeks go, you couldn’t even see the pipe. So, vast
improvement. The County Surveyor recommends, at this time, to declare the
condition of the ditch substantially cleared of obstructions, sufficient to convey storm
water, but to, when you close this meeting, this hearing, to leave it open on the
record, so that, in the future, if some similar condition grows up, or becomes extent
in the ditch, that a person who had been a party to this petition and this hearing
could come back without filing a new petition.
President Tornatta: So, we would need a motion to continue?
Bill Jeffers: Indefinitely, right. Just so they wouldn’t have to put up the $100 filing fee
if something happened three years from now. Is that okay?
President Tornatta: Do we have a motion to continue?
Commissioner Nix: So moved.
President Tornatta: Second. So ordered.
Bill Jeffers: I would really like to say, to anyone who happens to be watching or
reading the minutes, that we certainly appreciate this effort that was done on the part
of the neighborhood, you know, the neighbors coming together and doing it and
saving the county the trouble and the expense to have to go out there and clear it.
President Tornatta: I was going to say, it’s, as weird as this sounds, it’s exciting to
see folks working together for the betterment of their community and their
neighborhood to make sure–
Bill Jeffers: Right.
President Tornatta: –that there’s not that antagonistic view of one another not
pulling their weight. So, what a great job and thanks for following up, because had
you not done that, that wouldn’t have happened. So, thank you.
Bill Jeffers: I don’t know if anybody wanted to say anything from the neighborhood,
if they happen to be here.
President Tornatta: Anything on this one? It will be continued indefinitely, hopefully.
Resolution of Paul Esche Complaint/Linda Phillips Project
|
Bill Jeffers: Our next item is to resolve the Paul Esche and Linda Phillips project. In
that regard, I did go out yesterday, confirmed that what Ms. Phillips said about the
removal of the rip rap is a fact, it’s gone. At this time, I would make the
recommendation to adopt Bill Bivins, the professional engineer that presented, his
plan was presented to you two weeks ago at this meeting by Mrs. Phillips, to adopt
his plan that was submitted to the Board, with the following modifications; these
modifications are as suggested by the County Surveyor only to bring the plan fully
into conformance with the drainage code. Because the rip rap has been eliminated
and removed, to eliminate the undercutting of the ditch bottom and the placement
of the rip rap into the ditch bottom, that was Mr. Bivins suggestion for the disposal
of the rip rap, that would eliminate having to cart it off and pay a fuel charge for
carting it off, that’s no longer needed, and, so that extra excavation should be
modified out of the plan. In its place, because the ditch bottom needs to be widened
to two feet, as it previously was, and as it is going on up the hill, as its shown on the
plan, it must be two feet wide and flat, in order to convey sufficient water to go into
the pipe system. I would like the plan modified to show that. Because of the grade
of the ditch coming down the hill and the velocity shown on the original plan of over
six feet per second, and up to eight feet per second, the plan should be modified so
that the ditch bottom is protected by staked sod, or North American Green SC150
double knit erosion control mat, or its equal, installed per manufacturers
recommendation or INDOT standard specifications. This particular installation of
erosion control mat should go across the bottom, two foot bottom and up three feet
on each side, that’s about the width of the mat, seven to eight feet, and that would
cover the entire wetted perimeter that’s shown, the eight foot wetted perimeter that’s
shown on the approved plan for that subdivision, and to modify Mr. Bivins plan to
show the three to one side slopes should be seeded and fertilized with a mix,
according to Natural Resource Conservation Service, or equal recommendations,
so that it will be stabilized, and then matted with either a fast deteriorating DS150
mat, or a longer lasting mat such as S150, whichever is most applicable to the
season in which the seeding is done. In other words, if they do it in the fall and we’ve
got a lot of rainfall, they can use the fast deteriorating mat, (tape flip) very quickly,
if it’s a dormant seeding, they should use a little bit longer lasting erosion control
mat. That is the, oh, and as a final recommendation, or those are the modifications
to the plan, but as a final recommendation, I suggest that you require the
employment of Mr. Bivins to stake out, as needed, the three to one side slope, and
monitor the project until its completion to ensure that the three to one side slope is
accomplished.
President Tornatta: Do you have a recommendation on timing?
Bill Jeffers: I would say the drainage code allows you to speed the project up to 30
days. If that’s a little quick, and it might be, considering the dryness of the weather,
potential dryness between now and September, I would rely on the contractor, who
Ms. Phillips apparently has employed, because his equipment is out on the site, to
judge the soil conditions and possibly give him up until mid September to complete
it, so that the seeding is placed in such a time that we would anticipate some rainfall,
but no, absolutely no later than October 1st, October 15th, let’s say. Because then
you would have to go to dormant seeding, you know, wintertime seeding if you went
past October 15th. You wouldn’t anticipate any really vigorous grass growth until the
next spring. If it’s done by September 15th you could get a pretty good grass cover–
President Tornatta: Okay.
Bill Jeffers: –by November.
President Tornatta: Alright, are those your recommendations at this time?
Bill Jeffers: Yes, sir.
President Tornatta: Okay. I’m going to ask for Mrs. Phillips to come to the podium
please.
Linda Phillips: You didn’t think you’d ever ask to talk to me again, did you?
President Tornatta: I want you on your best behavior.
Linda Phillips: I am so good, you would just be amazed.
President Tornatta: Okay. Make sure you get that on the record. State your name
and your address please.
Linda Phillips: My name is Linda Phillips. I live at 9223 Big Hill Drive.
President Tornatta: Okay.
Linda Phillips: The last time that I was here, July 15th
, I understood that I could put
it back the way it was, take the rip rap out, and just go back to the beginning. So,
that’s what we did, we took the rip rap out, and I called the gentleman that I had
hired initially, and I asked him, I said, “Could you, you know, help me to get this dirt
and stuff back out of there? To get it back to the state it was when I hired you?” He
told me that because Mr. Jeffers had put a stop work on his equipment, he was not
allowed to do it until he had a letter from Mr. Jeffers stating it was okay to be on my
property. So, I called Mr. Jeffers and I asked him, I said, “Can I get something from
you stating that it’s okay to have this contractor back on my property to put this, I call
it easement, ditch back the way it was initially?” Mr. Jeffers told me no, that it would
have to be the way Mr. Bivins suggested. Let me tell you, first of all, when I talked
to Mr. Bivins, the first time I talked to him was that day that I was here at the meeting
on July the 15th
. On the telephone he told me that he did not see a problem with
the ditch, other than the initial area where they had dropped the rock and the dirt,
which, as I explained, because the neighbors did not give me a chance to finish what
we had planned, nor did they bother to come over and ask me what we were going
to do. Please, please let me reiterate the very first thing I did, and I did it on two
occasions, I went over and I knocked on the door, I don’t know these people, I didn’t
know their name, and I introduced myself, told them who I was, and I asked them,
“We need to do something, it looks nasty, do you mind if I try to do something with
this area?”
President Tornatta: Okay.
Linda Phillips: They told me, they did not care–
President Tornatta: Alright, we’re not going to go over this–
Linda Phillips: I’m just, okay, I know–
President Tornatta: –this is as fresh in my mind as it was a month ago.
Linda Phillips: I know, it’s two weeks now.
President Tornatta: Here’s what we need to do. The rip rap is gone at this time,
correct?
Linda Phillips: Yes, sir.
President Tornatta: Okay. It’s, he’s taken it out of the area? I mean, it would not
work–
Linda Phillips: It’s in Owensboro, Kentucky.
President Tornatta: Okay, okay. So, now we’re off to plan B. Plan B was suggested
by Mr. Bivins, and the modifications were given of that plan. Now, what my, what I
would like to proceed with now is working with you to decide a good timely point
when we think we could get these improvements done that’s okay for you too.
Linda Phillips: So, the county’s paying for this?
President Tornatta: Not a 30 day thing, or a 60 day thing. If we need more time to
do this.
Linda Phillips: Who pays for this?
President Tornatta: This would be you correcting the issue.
Linda Phillips: My correcting the issue would be to put it back as it was when I
started.
President Tornatta: Okay.
Linda Phillips: And that was what we said last week, that as long as I put it back the
way that it started, that was it. That is what I was in the process of doing, but Mr.
Jeffers wouldn’t give me the letter stating it was okay for the gentleman to take the
dirt back out. The rock is out.
President Tornatta: Okay.
Linda Phillips: And all I want to do is take the dirt out, and let them have their ugly
backyard back again.
President Tornatta: Right, now the point was it would be a three to one, and we
talked about that several times last time.
Linda Phillips: But it wasn’t three to one when we started.
President Tornatta: Well–
Linda Phillips: Why can’t I put it back the way it was? That’s what you told me last
time.
President Tornatta: No, no, no, we said three to one maybe 50 times. So, it would
be a three to one slope.
Linda Phillips: But, it wasn’t three to one to begin with.
President Tornatta: That plan was approved as a three to one slope back when it
was approved to do the plat on the drainage permit. So, that was handled way
before you took that lot.
Linda Phillips: But, the builder brought dirt in and built that lot up. He’s not, that’s not
the only lot. Can I show you these pictures?
President Tornatta: Yeah.
Linda Phillips: Do you mind?
President Tornatta: No.
Linda Phillips: These are new pictures.
President Tornatta: Okay.
Linda Phillips: These are, okay. This is Mr. Esche’s house here. This is the house
next door. Can you see how high, you talk about my lot, look how high his, his is the
lowest lot in that whole area. Explain to me why I am responsible for all of this. This
is two door’s down. Can you see how high that is? Everybody out there, now, see,
I think the problem is, he had a different builder. He did not have Mr. Sterchi. He
had a different builder, and we all had Mr. Sterchi. So, therefore, I don’t, do you
know what I’m trying to say? Why am I the bad guy in this one, when everybody else
out there....look how high, how low his house is with the guy next door. These are
the same height houses. So, I don’t understand why everybody else out there can
bring dirt in and do something with it, but I can’t.
Commissioner Nix: This is a good even flow line through here. It starts on the
property here.
Linda Phillips: Can you see, that looks like a roller coaster ride going down through
there.
Commissioner Nix: Well, but the water flows, and when it gets down here, this is all
sloughed off down into the ditch, all this.
Linda Phillips: How can it flow–
Commissioner Nix: Has this been removed?
Linda Phillips: Oh, yeah. Well, all of the rip rap been moved.
Commissioner Nix: Do you have a picture of the way it is right now? So, the dirt
hasn’t been pulled back then?
Linda Phillips: No, they won’t give my man permission to get on the property. Mr.
Jeffers told me no. He will not let me get back on the property.
Commissioner Nix: See, this needs to be cut–
Linda Phillips: (Inaudible).
President Tornatta: Hold on one second. Hold on one second. Hold on one second.
So, if that were brought back, and the man should know a three to one slope?
Linda Phillips: This looks like a roller coaster up here. How come–
President Tornatta: That’s not–
Commissioner Nix: We’re not discussing that. We’re talking about this right here.
Linda Phillips: But, what I’m trying to say, listen to me, they didn’t let me finish. He
told me I could do something with this, then he didn’t come to me, he just made a
complaint with Mr. Jeffers. They didn’t let me finish. They didn’t let me do it...how
can you do something, and stop something in the middle, and then complain about
the way it is when I didn’t get to finish. I told you, it’s like you coming in to work half
dressed. If somebody stops you and you can’t finish, you can’t finish.
President Tornatta: Okay. There’s that. Okay.
Commissioner Nix: Let’s–
President Tornatta: Okay, Ms. Phillips, we’re–
Linda Phillips: Okay, and another thing, the ditch isn’t on my property, and I don’t
understand why I have to be responsible when it’s on his property. I can go to, I can
see my property line, but like I said, everybody out there, if you go out there and look
at it–
Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Ms. Phillips? If I, just pardon me, if I could?
President Tornatta: Sure.
Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: You say you want to put it back the way it was. Now I
understand that there were 27 loads of dirt brought in.
Linda Phillips: Not in that ditch, no.
Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Well, I don’t know. That’s what the County Surveyor tells me. Or
that it’s migrated into the ditch. If you want to take 27 loads of dirt out, don’t, no,
please don’t show me pictures.
Linda Phillips: It’s just two truck loads. That’s the complaint. The complaint says two
truck loads. That’s the complaint right there. The citizens concern. Two truck loads.
Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: I see that. The County Surveyor is the, for the Drainage Board
is the expert on drainage.
Linda Phillips: And he’s mad at me. He’s going to make sure–
Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Alright, but Ms. Phillips–
Linda Phillips: –well.
Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Ms. Phillips, that’s not going to get us anywhere. Let me just try
to make my point, if I can. I don’t care what the complaint says, you admitted that
you brought, I think you did, 27 loads of dirt in and put it on the hillside there. If you
take all 27 loads out, it will be flat–
Linda Phillips: No it will not.
Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Well–
Linda Phillips: Oh, no.
Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.:– according to the engineer, who is Mr. Jeffers. Here, let me just,
you always want to finish, let me try to finish please. If you take 27 loads out, it will
be flat–
Linda Phillips: No, it won’t.
Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Like, alright–
Linda Phillips: Go ahead.
Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Mr. Jeffers said it will be like it was when you started. If you want
to do that, I think that’s a satisfactory plan. He tells me that what he’s proposing is
that a lot less than that needs to be taken out in order to achieve simply a three to
one, is that correct? A three to one ratio. So, he’s suggesting you don’t have to take
out 27 loads of dirt, but you do need your contractor to take out enough to get to the
three to one ratio.
Linda Phillips: That’s what I asked him.
Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Excuse me, but, excuse me, I’m still not quite finished. Alright,
then, he also suggested some other things that’s going to make the ditch better than
it was, and I asked you to suggest to Mr. Esche that there might be some
participation in that. Is there?
Bill Jeffers: Excuse me a moment, please.
Linda Phillips: Sure. Go ahead. Good to see ya.
Bill Jeffers: Nice to see you today, Linda. As with anything that I try to accomplish
in the County Surveyor’s office, I do not play favorites, and I do not get mad. I just
try to get the job done, okay? On the aerial photographs that we have from 2000,
and the aerial photographs that we have from 2005, three years ago, as the house
was not there, or as it was being built, in either case, you could clearly see the land
contours of the lot as it was being prepared for the house to be built. While the term
flat is relative, if the 27 loads of dirt that was brought in to landscape the backyard
to her desired contour, because she did, as she explained, did not want a, what she
calls a ski slope from her patio down to the ditch, she brought in enough dirt to level
that off so she has a more flat backyard, not flat, but more flattened backyard grade.
Then when it comes to the fence line, it goes off at a much steeper grade than it did
under the natural contours that were there before the house was built. Yes, the
contractor brought in some dirt to place the building pad that the house sits on, but
she brought in the other estimated 27 loads of dirt to alter the grade in her backyard
to her satisfaction. That’s fine with me. If somebody wants to build their yard up,
that’s fine with me, so long as the portion of that yard that lies within an easement
is modified in accordance, either with the original drainage plan that was approved
by your Board, or with the drainage code as is required of every other subdivision
built since 1994. That is a maximum steepness, using earth as an embankment, of
three to one. That’s the maximum steepness. Now, if enough dirt were taken out
she could get back to the original grade, as it was before, she would have to remove
her wrought iron fence and take out maybe 15, maybe 20 loads of dirt. As it is
today, removing it to a three to one slope, just enough dirt to re-achieve a three to
one slope will probably only take a couple or three truck loads of dirt.
Commissioner Nix: Which would allow her to keep her fence where it is?
Bill Jeffers: And will allow her to keep her fence as positioned without, and it’s a nice,
expensive fence.
Commissioner Nix: It’s a beautiful fence.
Bill Jeffers: I do not want the fence removed, and I would be willing to achieve as
close to a three to one side slope as is practicable and still have a berm at the top
to allow her to mow, with a riding lawn mower, so that the embankment doesn’t
come up and abruptly terminate right at the fence and she’ll be mowing on a tilt
which would be unsafe. So, even that, we have a little give and take. Now, as to the
bottom of the ditch with the netting in it, yes, high velocity erosion control mat is not
cheap, but it’s not outrageously expensive. It’s about the same or less than sod.
Now, when you look up the hill, from her lot on up, where the ditch was left pretty
much as is, or as was left by the developer and turned over to the residents, you will
see well established lawn grass, some wet spots, some very minor erosion, but
manageable. It’s all cut. I was out there, as I said, Monday, and the ground was wet,
and it had been freshly cut. Everyone was able to mow the grass across the ditch
from her lot south, even though it was wet, there was some standing water, there
were some tire tracks, what have you, it was reasonably capable of being
maintained by a homeowner. That’s the condition that a ditch must be before John
Stoll releases the letter of credit from the developer and turns a ditch over to a
homeowner. So, I must assume that the ditch in her backyard was in the same
condition at the time that the letter of credit was released. I just now asked Mr.
Esche, who is here, and you may ask him any other questions you wish to ask him
after I make this statement, would he be willing to participate in the correction of the
ditch bottom, which is now rutted with up to one foot deep trench caused, in my
estimation, by the excess dirt that has pushed over and pushed the velocity of the
water into a smaller channel than the two foot wide channel that was there before,
the two foot wide bottom that has to be there to handle those kind of velocities
before it enters the pipe, and it concentrated that velocity at a point and scoured out
the bottom. He says that was not the case before the dirt was imported and placed
on the embankment. So, I’m simply asking that what measures are commonly
taken, and what measures the developer originally took to establish a two foot wide
bottom with a gentle side slope, covered with grass, capable of being maintained by
a property owner with the type of equipment that they keep in their yard barns,
lawnmowers, etcetera, that’s all I’m asking for. That’s all I would ask of any person
in the same situation.
Commissioner Nix: I have a question.
Bill Jeffers: Yes, sir?
Commissioner Nix: Ms. Phillips stated that you wouldn’t allow the contractor to come
back and do the work. Where are we at with that now?
Bill Jeffers: If the Board adopts the plan, or any plan that will restore the ditch to a
condition that comports with the drainage code, and the contractor is licensed to do
the work that’s required to accomplish that, we’re good to go. When we say a stop
work order, I simply placed a note on his, the seat of his bobcat in September
saying, “Do not proceed any further until you have a plan adopted by the Board.”
Commissioner Nix: My question is, do we have to do anything today for him to come
back and make this three to one slope and get this behind us?
Bill Jeffers: Yes, sir, adopt the plan.
Commissioner Nix: Okay, so it has to be re-adopted then? Or, because there are
changes, is that what you’re telling us?
President Tornatta: We’re adopting his modifications.
Commissioner Nix: His modifications.
Bill Jeffers: You’re adopting Mr. Bivins plan with the modifications that I recommend
in order to restore the ditch to a condition that comports with the drainage code to
be turned over to a private property owner.
Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Then, I just have one question about it. Then, your plan, or Mr.
Bivins plan will not make the ditch, in so far as Mr. Esche is concerned or Ms.
Phillips is concerned, any better than it was prior to the dirt being brought in, is that
correct?
Bill Jeffers: I apologize for the misconception I gave you over here when we were
talking off to the side,.
Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Because I think, in fairness, the reason I’m saying that, if we’re
making it better than it was, then Mr. Esche ought to participate, in my opinion.
Bill Jeffers: I agree, and so when I asked Mr. Esche about that, he said, it wouldn’t
make, well, I’m going to let him answer whether it would make it better. I’m
assuming, because I, it was not I who went out and inspected the ditch for the
County Engineer. I only review the plans and recommend approval of the plans. The
County Engineer sent his inspectors out a few years ago and said look at the ditch,
if it comports with the condition that the drainage code requires for a stable ditch,
without erosion, without sedimentation, with a grass cover that’s capable of being
maintained by a homeowner, then we’re going to turn it over from the developer to
the homeowner and release his letter of credit. I’m assuming that happened,
because John Stoll is a professional and that’s what happens in every case I’ve seen
that, before he releases a letter of credit, you can mow right across those ditches.
I’m assuming that’s the way it was. I look uphill, that’s the way it is uphill, you know,
on the other homes. I may have said something over here to the side to your
attorney, but you have Mr. Esche here to attest to the condition of the ditch before
all this started.
President Tornatta: Okay. Bill, if you’ll stay up here one other second, I would like
to ask you, if we adopt the modifications which are on the record today, she comes
with a gentleman who would like to do those modifications to Mr. Bivins bidding, can
you work with Mr. Bivins and this contractor to make sure that if there are, that those
modifications if he has other ways of doing something similar to what you would like
to achieve that we can further modify that through your office?
Bill Jeffers: Absolutely. I will go out there tomorrow morning, before I come to the
Civic Center and talk to the contractor. If there’s any other minor modifications that
you indicate, you know, as long as the minor modifications don’t represent a
dramatic or a major deviation from this plan, yes.
President Tornatta: Okay, which would potentially–
Bill Jeffers: I’m not the strictest person in the world.
President Tornatta: Right, and I know that.
Bill Jeffers: Before coming back to the Board, I would use my judgement to say, yes,
a modification falls within reasonable conformity with the code, let’s go with it.
President Tornatta: So, that in turn might save her some money.
Bill Jeffers: I would love to.
President Tornatta: It might allow this gentleman to do a project, maybe a way that
we’re not thinking of right now to achieve the same desired effect.
Bill Jeffers: I’m always open to good ideas.
President Tornatta: Okay.
Bill Jeffers: I would also like to reiterate that Mr. Esche is here to tell you whether or
not he’s agreeable to the work being accomplished on his property.
President Tornatta: Mr. Esche, if you would come on up? Name and address
please.
Paul Esche: Commissioners, Mr. Ziemer, Paul Esche, 9224 Arbor Grove Court. I
spoke with Mr. Jeffers last evening, and listened to everything he said, and I think
if that’s accomplished, then that’s fine with me.
President Tornatta: Okay.
Paul Esche: No objections to the plan.
President Tornatta: Okay.
Linda Phillips: I have a question for Mr. Esche, since he doesn’t believe–
President Tornatta: Hold on, hold on. No, no, no, we’re not going to allow that.
Linda Phillips: I can’t ask him a question?
President Tornatta: We’re not going to allow that. Thank you. Okay, you may
address the Board. You may not address anybody in the audience.
Linda Phillips: I just have a question. A question.
President Tornatta: You may address the Board.
Linda Phillips: Would you please ask Mr. Esche a question for me?
President Tornatta: Okay.
Linda Phillips: Ask him if that ditch looked like that when that house was built, before
I ever moved in, if that ditch looked just like it does now? That rough, and that
unkept?
President Tornatta: Okay. Alright.
Linda Phillips: That ditch–
President Tornatta: I will take a recommendation from this Board at this point. Thank
you.
Linda Phillips: I do not like Mr. Bivins. I do not like his work. He told me one thing
on the phone. That letter was handed to me last, two weeks ago when I walked in
this building. I had not saw that letter before I walked in here for that meeting. He
told me one thing on the phone, and I got the letter, it had something else in it. I
didn’t even read that letter, because I thought the man was a professional, and that
he was going to write what he told me. I was on the phone with Mr. Jeffers, and Mr.
Jeffers started telling me, I did get the letter out and read it. I’ve got a lot of other
things going on, not just this, and I took the man at his word. So, he’s telling me one
thing, he’s doing, he’s putting another thing in the letter. So, I don’t particularly care
for his work. I’m really not, I don’t think it’s fair. You told me that he was supposed
to be here tonight. You requested me, him and Mr. Esche to be here. Is he here
tonight? I don’t know him.
President Tornatta: Mrs. Phillips, what we’re trying to do here is trying to save you
some money–
Linda Phillips: I’ve already spent $1,600.
President Tornatta: –to get it remedied. Then, the next thing we’re going to try to
do and try and make sure it gets done in an appreciable amount of time so that it
works with you as much as possible, but also achieves what needs to be achieved
from the county. So, at this time, I would take a motion.
Commissioner Nix: And that’s to allow, or to follow the plans as per–
Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: It would be the modified Bivins plan as presented by Mr. Jeffers.
Commissioner Nix: So moved.
President Tornatta: And, may we have a date on that? It was October 15th. I’m okay
with pushing it back.
Commissioner Nix: The 15th is fine with me, of October, that’s fine.
Linda Phillips: Why do I–
President Tornatta: The only thing, when summer seems to go longer, we don’t have
any idea. So, I don’t know if there’s an issue, Bill, where we would be acceptable of
pushing it back to mid November, if that be the case, or the end of October?
Commissioner Nix: You’re probably going to get into the vegetation.
Linda Phillips: Please explain to me why I have to pay to fix his ditch? Do I have to
come and fix yours too? Yours? That’s, it doesn’t make sense. It’s not on my
property. I did not affect his plan.
Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Ms. Phillips, I’m going to tell you the reason.
Linda Phillips: Please do.
Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: The reason is because you put 27 loads of dirt–
Linda Phillips: I did not.
Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: –which you’ve asked me to give you a reason, and I’m going to
give it to.
Linda Phillips: But, it’s not true.
Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Which caused the side of the ditch to migrate over into the ditch
causing the scouring, which leaves the ditch in the condition it is today. Now, we
have to accept the word of somebody, and our professional is the County Surveyor.
He has given us this recommendation and the board is going to accept that. All I’m
doing is answering your question.
Linda Phillips: Okay, the thing of it is, everybody else has brought in dirt too. Look
at the man next door to him. Nothing was said about that. He didn’t let me finish.
If he would have just been a neighbor, came over and said, “What are you doing?
I don’t like it.” I could have explained that, he just was dumping it. It wasn’t, he
didn’t give me a chance to finish it.
President Tornatta: Ms. Phillips?
Linda Phillips: How can you–
President Tornatta: Ms. Phillips, we continue to interrupt you–
Linda Phillips: Oh, yeah, you do. That’s okay I’m used to it being one sided, because
it’s been that way from the beginning.
President Tornatta: We have a motion on the floor, and the date is October 15th.
Commissioner Korb: Second.
President Tornatta: We have a second, and so ordered.
Receive Evelyn Utley Petition to Remove an Obstruction
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Bill Jeffers: Our next item on the agenda is to receive Evelyn Utley’s petition to
remove an obstruction alleged to be on her neighbors property and causing poor
drainage on her property. Madelyn Grayson has that petition in hand, and I believe
there’s a filing fee, a check for the filing fee is with it. All we’re doing here tonight is
accepting the petition, and then you direct me to go make my investigation report
back to you.
Commissioner Nix: Move approval of accepting the petition.
Commissioner Korb: Second.
President Tornatta: So ordered.
Set Hearing Date for Roger Huff Petition
|
Bill Jeffers: The next item is to set a hearing date for the Roger Huff petition, which
is a similar petition alleging an obstruction on the property of the Schmidt’s, his
neighbor, causing bad drainage to the Huff property. I have been out and viewed
the site and will tell you that, technically, an obstruction does exist, as alleged, and
I’m asking that you consider August 5th as a hearing date to take testimony from the
two parties.
Commissioner Nix: That does coincide with a Commission meeting, is that correct?
Bill Jeffers: Yes, sir.
Commissioner Nix: Thank you.
Bill Jeffers: Lucky for you.
Commissioner Nix: So moved.
Commissioner Korb: Second.
President Tornatta: So ordered.
Bill Jeffers: I have no claims for services to bring to you tonight. So, we’re at other
business, should the Board have any. Let me check, I don’t have any other
business.
President Tornatta: Okay.
Bill Jeffers: But, if the Board has none, we’re at public comment.
President Tornatta: Do we have public comment? I see the Reis party out there. If
you would.
Commissioner Korb: That won’t be pertaining to drainage.
President Tornatta: We’ll, Mr. Reis?
Dave Reis: Dave Reis.
President Tornatta: What’s your address?
Dave Reis: 18131 Old Henderson Road.
President Tornatta: Okay.
Dave Reis: We had talked two weeks ago, to take care of some, well, we wanted to
see if the road, the alley I think you all called it, that ran behind several lots was
actually a county road. I found out from, well, I was told, let’s put it this way, that it’s
not a county road.
Commissioner Korb: What kind of road is it?
Dave Reis: Jeff, you were there, you tell me. It’s a road. It’s a drive. You know, the
county owns part of it, I own part of it, the O’Hara’s own part of it, Greg Cook owns
part of it. It’s all, it’s not deeded in, or it’s not set aside for any roadway.
President Tornatta: Okay. What did the Sheriff recommend?
Dave Reis: Uh–
Commissioner Korb: I can answer that.
President Tornatta: Okay.
Commissioner Korb: He’s not here. We’ve got issues with encroachment on both
parties, Mr. O’Hara and Mr. Reis, on county property. Mr. Reis has cleared some
trees from county property as well, and, so, what we’ve requested Mr. Jeffers to do,
because there is county property involved and Mr. Jeffers comment, which was very
accurate earlier this evening in our department head meeting was, “Do not go by the
lines that we see on the GIS reports, because the pins, some of them are buried as
much as six feet deep.” So, Mr. Jeffers is sending a crew out to take a look to see
what preliminary work they can come up with, and then after that is done, well, if we
have to get a professional surveyor out there, the reason for that, Troy, is because
the Sheriff’s hands are tied. We don’t really know who’s on who’s property.
Dave Reis: Right.
Commissioner Korb: And as soon as we’re able to answer those questions, then all
of a sudden, the Sheriff is able to say, this is the way it needs to be and do not be
getting in each other’s space, and certainly do not be trespassing on county
property.
President Tornatta: Okay. So, that’s the answer?
Dave Reis: Yeah, so, we’re just waiting for Mr. Jeffers.
Commissioner Korb: Yep, that’s what we’re waiting for.
President Tornatta: We’re waiting for him, and he’ll take care of that and then we’ll
get back to you.
Dave Reis: Then you’ll get back with me?
President Tornatta: Until then–
Commissioner Korb: Act like adults. You guys are killing us out there.
President Tornatta: I’m not saying that, I’m just saying cease and desist from
irritating one another. So, with that being said, Mr. Reis and crew thanks for coming
out, and we’ll address this once we get the Assessor to look at it, or the
Assessor/Surveyor, or whoever we have.
Dave Reis: I guess, he’ll contact us when he comes down?
President Tornatta: Yes, yes. Okay.
Dave Reis: Thank you very much.
President Tornatta: Thank you very much.
Dave Reis: That’s what we needed to know.
President Tornatta: Motion to adjourn?
Commissioner Korb: Hey, we may need some of that deed work. I’ll let you know.
Dave Reis: I will give you everything I have.
Commissioner Korb: But, we may need some of that. If I do, we’ll contact you.
Dave Reis: Okay.
Commissioner Korb: Thanks.
Dave Reis: Okay.
President Tornatta: Any other public comment? I’m sorry. Any other public
comment? If you’ll state your name and your address please.
Mrs. O’Hara: I’m the infamous Mrs. O’Hara. I live at 18025 Old Henderson Road.
When I purchased the property, we were told that the road behind it was an
easement. My son went down, got plat book one and found when the property was
originally bought from a party in Illinois that there was an easement road back
behind there. There at one time was six houses there. That was an easement for
time and all eternity, written and unwritten. It’s in your plat book. All I’m saying is,
they’ve had it blocked, the Sheriff had to unblock it. We couldn’t even get an
ambulance back there when I got sick. It endangers my health. I would ask that the
road be allowed to remain open. I noticed that someone has put two fence posts up
at the other end of the road in order to put a gate up, I would assume. But, if that’s
an easement, which it should be, then I think it should be left open as long there is
a house livable there.
President Tornatta: Can I ask a question? Do, is, are we playing a game where we
can use the road right now until we find out otherwise? Is that the direction that we
have at this point?
Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: I think, Commissioner Tornatta, the problem is that we don’t
know whether there is a roadway back there or not. When we find out where the
county property lines are, I think we will also, maybe at the same time find out to
what extent there’s a roadway over county property.
President Tornatta: I guess, I’m saying today, if these individuals were to drive back
to their properties, can we use that road until we find out otherwise?
Commissioner Korb: I can answer that question. Yes.
President Tornatta: Okay.
Commissioner Korb: They are not allowed to block it in any way, shape or form.
President Tornatta: Okay.
Commissioner Korb: But, in all fairness, just looking at it, you all also have got some
of your property on county property.
Mrs. O’Hara: We–
Commissioner Korb: A lot, actually.
Mrs. O’Hara: Actually–
Commissioner Korb: Including a garden.
Mrs. O’Hara: Actually, half of my house is, by your surveys, on county property. I
don’t know how. I mean, I’m from Indianapolis. I bought property in what my son told
me was the best county in the state to live. He loved it.
President Tornatta: Now, have you, have they done any modifications to that house,
that you know of, that would push it on county property?
Mrs. O’Hara: No.
President Tornatta: If you find out that there has been an addition on that house, and
it crosses into county property, we do need that brought forward.
Mrs. O’Hara: We can’t tell.
President Tornatta: No, you bought it–
Mrs. O’Hara: I bought it.
President Tornatta: –initially. So, you can’t tell if there have been additions to the
house?
Mrs. O’Hara: From what appears to me, the front porch was enclosed and there’s
been a side porch–
President Tornatta: That’s been added?
Mrs. O’Hara: –or a side room. I don’t know when it was added.
President Tornatta: Okay.
Mrs. O’Hara: There’s been a back porch, there was a front porch that somebody had
tried to tear off. We have removed it in order to put a retaining wall for dirt there.
President Tornatta: Okay.
Commissioner Korb: I think the easiest way for this is, and I don’t understand how
the ambulance could have gotten hung up, because, again, the Sheriff and I were
out there last week and we physically drove it and walked it–
Commissioner Nix: I think she’s talking before (Inaudible. Mic. not on.)
Mrs. O’Hara: I’m talking before.
President Tornatta: They had it blocked.
Mrs. O’Hara: They had the trailer blocking the road.
Commissioner Korb: Right.
Mrs. O’Hara: And they had a dog cage on there and a pile of dirt.
Commissioner Korb: But, my point is, there’s been enough head butting on both
sides of the aisle. So, I mean, there’s no way that either one of you can be pointing
a finger.
Mrs. O’Hara: I’m not saying that. I’m saying that when it was blocked, other than
going through the county property, and if it was raining, you can’t get through there
because it gets slick and muddy. They couldn’t get an ambulance back through
there.
Commissioner Korb: But, there’s another entrance to your home.
Mrs. O’Hara: No.
Commissioner Korb: Yes, there is, because the Sheriff and I drove out of it, and one
of the individuals who’s living in your home almost backed into us. It’s like, how
could he not even see a Sheriff’s cruiser back there. The Sheriff pulled him over and
had a conversation with him as a result of that.
Mrs. O’Hara: That part of the property–
Commissioner Korb: Uh-huh.
Mrs. O’Hara: – that’s not mine, as far as I know.
Commissioner Korb: But, it’s closest to your home.
Mrs. O’Hara: It’s closest to my home.
Commissioner Korb: So why wouldn’t you use that as an exit and an entrance?
Mrs. O’Hara: It’s the same thing there as it is on the other side.
Commissioner Korb: Okay.
Mrs. O’Hara: When it rains–
Commissioner Korb: Uh-huh.
Mrs. O’Hara: –it’s mud. That grassy area gets muddy.
Commissioner Korb: Right.
Mrs. O’Hara: When it flooded this spring, when all of our neighbors were gone, we
fed other neighbors animals, including a goat, we took care of other people’s
property, moving it up out where it would not float away and be destroyed. We didn’t
have to leave our property, because the water did not get up into our house.
Everybody close to us left.
Commissioner Korb: Well, where we are is, the road is open for both of you to use
until we figure out where the county lines are. I could be all wet on this, but once we
figure it out and delineate where the county lines are, you all will not be able to use
that road as a common roadway, because that road does pass through county
property. So, at this point in time, and that’s why we’ve asked specifically for Mr.
Jeffers and his group, and then if we have to go to the next level with a professional
to figure out where those pins are, because when the smoke clears, we’re all going
to understand where the property is. There will be no more cutting down trees on
county land. He’ll be arrested if he does that. There will be no more of you all
getting angry with each other over property lines, because there is clearly county
property between your home and his home. So, that’s why I’m saying, we spent a
lot of money making runs down to your end and there’s no reason for that. So, and
I’m just telling you how it is. But, again, it just befuddles me, because I’m sitting
there going, there is an entrance, we went out that exit and it had gravel on it. So,
there’s no reason for us to get into a big discussion here about what’s going on, just
to let you know that we’re in the process of having it surveyed, and then once that
is done you will have to remove your property, if there is any of your property, from
county land, as will Mr. Reis. It’s real simple. But, right now, we don’t know.
Mrs. O’Hara: But, when you came down, the trailer and things had been removed.
Commissioner Korb: That’s because we requested them to be removed.
Mrs. O’Hara: Right, but that’s a paved road back there. That’s not a gravel road.
Commissioner Korb: That’s a paved road, that’s correct.
Mrs. O’Hara: That’s right. It was like an alleyway in Indianapolis.
Commissioner Korb: Right, and we’re going to figure all that out. Again, there’s no
reason for us to have this discussion now, because we don’t have any information.
All I know is, the Sheriff is under strict orders to his deputies, arrest them if they do
anything that is out of bounds and out of character. We have asked you all to act like
adults. That’s not too much to ask.
Mrs. O’Hara: We don’t even go out of our house.
Commissioner Korb: Well, obviously, somebody did, because he almost ran over the
Sheriff’s cruiser.
Mrs. O’Hara: Well–
Commissioner Korb: And I was with him.
Mrs. O’Hara: He was going to work.
Commissioner Korb: That’s fine, but we were just like coasting. So, again, I really–
Mrs. O’Hara: I understand what you’re saying.
Commissioner Korb: I’m done with this conversation with you and with Mr. Reis until
we get an understanding of where the property lines are. Once we do that, then it’s
a whole different ball game for everybody down there.
Mrs. O’Hara: And, our attorney, Mr. Hambridge, I think I’m pronouncing it right, or
something on that order.
Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Hambidge.
Mrs. O’Hara: Yes. He requested that the Council attorney contact him, because
there is quite an uproar over the deed. We’ve been 14 months trying to get a deed
through ERA, Citibank, Hahn Realty, and Transunion Title Company. So–
Commissioner Korb: And that’s not our responsibility. That’s Mr. Hambidge’s
responsibility.
Mrs. O’Hara: I understand that, but the problem is that nobody, this Council, and
your surveyors, nobody knows where the lines are.
Commissioner Korb: And we’re going to come up with that, but if Mr. Hambidge
needs to speak to our counsel, he may contact him.
Mrs. O’Hara: That’s all I would ask.
Commissioner Korb: That’s great.
President Tornatta: Thank you.
Mrs. O’Hara: You have a good day.
President Tornatta: Thank you both groups for coming out. Any other public
comment? Look for a motion to adjourn.
Commissioner Korb: In a hurry.
Commissioner Nix: So moved.
Commissioner Korb: Second.
President Tornatta: So ordered.
(The meeting was adjourned at 6:45 p.m.)
Those in Attendance:
Troy Tornatta Bill Nix Jeff Korb
Bill Jeffers Ted C. Ziemer, Jr. Madelyn Grayson
Linda Phillips Paul Esche Dave Reis
Mrs. O’Hara Others Unidentified Members of Media
VANDERBURGH COUNTY
DRAINAGE BOARD
Troy Tornatta, President
Bill Nix, Vice President
Jeff Korb, Member
(Recorded and transcribed by Madelyn Grayson.)