VANDERBURGH COUNTY

DRAINAGE BOARD

July 7, 2009

The Vanderburgh County Drainage Board met in session this 7^th day of July, 2009 at 5:15 p.m. in room 301 of the Civic Center Complex with President Lloyd Winnecke presiding.

President Winnecke: I’ll call to order the July 7, 2009 meeting of the Vanderburgh County Drainage Board. Attendance roll call, please.

Madelyn Grayson: Commissioner Tornatta?

Commissioner Tornatta: Here.

Madelyn Grayson: Commissioner Melcher?

Commissioner Melcher: Here.

Madelyn Grayson: President Winnecke?

President Winnecke: Here.

President Winnecke: Okay, Linda?

Linda Freeman: I gave away all of my agendas. We’re just here for preliminary approval of Carrie Hills Number Two Subdivision. Basically, we do know there are some issues, and Matt Wallace is here to talk to those folks. If they want to make public comment here, but, like I said, it’s preliminary, so that they can go forth to go to Area Plan and things. So, it would come back before you.

Commissioner Tornatta: Okay.

Linda Freeman: And, we do recommend preliminary approval.

President Winnecke: At this time would there be anyone who would like to speak on behalf of this?

Commissioner Tornatta: And while we’re doing that, I make a motion to approve the previous meeting’s minutes.

Commissioner Melcher: Second.

President Winnecke: A motion and a second. Questions or discussion? All in favor say aye.

All Commissioners: Aye.

President Winnecke: Opposed? The minutes are approved.

(Motion approved 3-0)

President Winnecke: Good evening.

Andy Davidson: Good evening.

President Winnecke: Could you state your name for the record, please?

Andy Davidson: Andy Davidson. I’m the landowner out there. The reason for this is basically to be able to build my son a home on the new lot three. He’s moving back from Indianapolis, and we needed to replat everything to bring it up to standard and to be able to build the house on the property that didn’t have enough frontage previously to do that.

Commissioner Tornatta: Alright.

President Winnecke: Any questions?

Commissioner Tornatta: I have none.

President Winnecke: Would you like to speak, sir?

Matt Wallace: Hi, my name is Matt Wallace. I’m with Bernardin Lochmueller and Associates. I’m the engineer of record that did the drainage plan for this subdivision. As Mr. Davidson said, we’re only looking to construct one new residence. The other lots have existing residences on them. The County Engineer has asked us to do a little bid of widening to Summertime Lane. There is some asphalt there now, and then a gravel shoulder on one side, on Mr. Davidson’s side. We’ve been asked to replace that gravel with hard pavement, and to construct a cul-de-sac at the end of the road, because currently it just dead ends. So, the improvements that we’re proposing are less than 10,000 square feet of new, impervious surface, and we would probably be doing some improvements to the existing drainage system that’s there now, just by virtue of the fact that what is, there’s a pipe along the side of Summertime Lane now, and I’m afraid it’s not a traffic rated pipe. It wasn’t installed to have traffic going over it. So, we’re going to replace it with a little bit of new pipe, a couple new inlets, a new outlet and construct our cul-de-sac. So, if you have any questions, I would be glad to help try to answer them.

Commissioner Tornatta: Alright.

President Winnecke: Any questions of either Mr. Davidson or Mr. Wallace?

Commissioner Tornatta: No, thanks.

President Winnecke: Would anyone like to speak, who else would like to speak on this issue?

Glen Hile: My name is Glen Hile. I live at 351 Summertime Lane. I’m the last house on the end, on the opposite side of the road from Mr. Davidson. You’ll have to forgive me, I’m not a public speaker. This is the first one I’ve been to like this.

President Winnecke: Just relax and tell your story.

Glen Hile: I’m trying. Like I say, my house is the last house on the end of the road, and we’re on the downhill side of Summertime Lane, which is the west side of the road. I’ve been there 20 years. When I moved there the opposite side of the road was virtually all wooded, there was a swale on the east side of the road, which since no one else did it, I maintained. I mowed it, kept the leaves out, picked up limbs, trimmed trees back. I never had a problem with drainage. Mr. Davidson built the big house, by the way, do you have my pictures that I sent? Okay. When Mr. Davidson built the house on the other side of the road, he did some real extensive grading and landscaping, filled in the swale, put a pipe through, and not only filled in the swale, but tapered it, so all the water on the east side of the road crossed over the road. I did get him to put in two small drains in the pipe he was talking, the 12 inch pipe that he put in. Then, later he started mulching the east side of the road, which was formally woods. There’s still some trees in there. So, every time we would get a hard rain, the mulch would wash down, block the drains, and all the water would come across my road, down my drive, across my yard. So, consequently, before and after and sometimes during any heavy rain that I’m expecting, I’m up there raking the gravel back from the edge of the road to try to make a little bit of a channel for the water to go, raking the water back, the mulch back from the two small drains that he has. Another problem is the driveway that he constructed for his house there at 230 Summertime Lane extends way out to the center of the road. It’s sloped directly from up by his house, which is a very big house, and there’s a lot of pavement up there, and all the water from the drains there comes down the road, down his driveway, across Summertime Lane. I have a picture there of where it’s eroding the lane. Like even last Friday in the light rain that we had all day, there was a constant stream of water running down the driveway. In a heavy rain, it comes down the road and divides, part of it goes across the road, part of it goes each way on Summertime Lane. Consequently, down the hill, down my drive, down my yard. I have some pictures there of some of the damage that’s been caused. The particular pictures were taken after a really hard rain, which was right after he’d had another couple loads of mulch put on the yard, which made it worse, but it still happens two or three times a year. Let me check my notes here. There’s also a wall that, from his stakes, what they put there now on the surveying, which I would suspect it extends on to the road right-of-way, down on the south end towards me it kind of tapers toward the road. Water runs off of there onto the road also. He’s also started the preliminary work on building his house on lot three, and probably I’m estimating probably two acres of what was woods has been all cleared and grated. The water problem that I had before, you would have to be there to see it, the run off is just tremendous. There is a gulley that runs also across my property, which is the natural drainage for that area. I mean, we’re talking water two or three foot deep going through there. Anyway, from what I could see on his drainage plan, which, to me, was kind of sketchy, there are his driveway and the wall are, for some reason, they’re omitted from the sketch on the plan. Not that plan, let’s get the right one here. It’s this plan here. He has, I noticed he does have the driveway that goes up to his barn on there, the gravel drive. The drive to the existing house, but for some reason the drain for his main house, the drive to his main house, the big concrete drive, and the wall have been completely omitted off of here. I’m not quite sure why that is. With all the water that comes down through there, I want to see it restored to its natural drainage, which is down the east side and then south across the ravine on my property. Another thing I would suggest, there’s a 30 foot right-of-way off of my property for extension of the county road, there’s a subdivision to the south of me on the same side, the west side of the road, that has a right-of-way reserved for a county road there also. Those houses on that subdivision are now served by a temporary easement which comes off of Williams Road which is west of Summertime Lane. It has a temporary access to their house. I think the road should be extended across my property. I know the County Engineer and I got word that some experts say it can’t be done because of the drain, but it’s like a mere 130 foot from where the land drops off to where it comes back up. To me, it would be no more costly than building a cul-de-sac and a long drive to their house. On top of that it could be used as an embankment for a retention pond to slow this flow of water down across my property. So, I think that’s about all I have to say.

President Winnecke: Would you like to say something, sir? Just state your name for the record, please.

Mike O’Nan: Mike O’Nan. I live at 225 Summertime Lane. We purchased the property in 2002. You spoke of....I’ve yet to see, I haven’t been able to take off work to see this plan. It spoke of drainage, there’s a drain right now going under the road, and it goes right straight...the front part of my house it’s a wooded area, and there’s a ditch that runs through it. Right now there is one culvert going under the road. Is that the culvert you’re speaking of? Or are you speaking of replacing another one? Like I said, I haven’t seen, I haven’t actually seen the plan. What I got was, I couldn’t read it.

Unidentified: It’s on the east side.

Mike O’Nan: The east side?

Unidentified: (Inaudible).

Mike O’Nan: Right, so, it won’t be going actually under Summertime? So, the one that’s under there right now will just still be the same? Okay. One of those pictures is, the one coming down his driveway, that runs right straight off into my front, wooded area. But, like I say, you were speaking of a culvert, that was my main question. Okay, thank you.

Commissioner Tornatta: Thank you.

President Winnecke: Linda, the plans, these plans, does it include what Mr. Davidson and Mr. Wallace discussed? Widening the lane, replacing the gravel and the cul-de-sac, and installing the new inlets, outlets, and the piping?

Linda Freeman: Right.

President Winnecke: That’s all part of this?

Linda Freeman: Yes. It’s partially in the drainage report too.

President Winnecke: Okay.

Linda Freeman: Then, yeah, he’s talking about widening and then making the cul-de-sac, the proposed extension of the 12 inch HDP type, which is high density polyethylene with outlet protection. Then this is the existing inlet that will be replaced with the traffic rated inlet. I don’t know what, it’s just not a traffic rated inlet right now. So, this, they would be...you would be paving this, right? Yeah, they would be paving this and bringing this up. Now, are you going to bring this to county standard?

Matt Wallace: Yes, we have to bring it up to county standard.

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Have those people seen these plans?

President Winnecke: Then, my next question is for Mr. Hile and Mr. O’Nan, have you seen these plans? The ones that they have discussed tonight? That is the improvements they are proposing; widening the lane, replacing the gravel and the cul-de-sac?

Glen Hile: We have heard sketchy information on it. I saw this sketch that they were going to widen the lane, but I had no dimensions. I also–

President Winnecke: Could you come up so that we could get your comments on the record, please? Thank you.

Glen Hile: I have very sketchy information on how wide the road is going to be. I don’t know if you could tell from the pictures now, but it is a one lane road right now.

President Winnecke: Right.

Mike O’Nan: Right.

Glen Hile: There’s a hill there that blocks the view of anyone coming and going. That’s right by Mr. O’Nan’s driveway.

Mike O’Nan: That’s where my driveway is.

Glen Hile: Right now, I mean, it’s liveable, because the only ones at the end of my road, or down that way is Mr. Davidson, my wife and I, who are very conservative, the neighbor at 301 who is never, or, you know–

Mike O’Nan: He drives a truck.

Glen Hile: –Dennis drives a truck and he’s never there and lives alone. So, but, when we add another home, especially a young couple with friends and visitors, the construction traffic and all, this one lane road becomes a nightmare.

Commissioner Tornatta: Right, well, why don’t, if it’s all the same, can you look over the report? This is preliminary, so this is sending it to get a lot more feedback before it comes back to us again. So, take a look at that, if you have some more comments or whatever, stay on the trail with this project, and have any remonstration that you choose, and then when it comes back to us, if we feel that all of your questions haven’t been answered, we’ll address those at that time again.

Glen Hile: Now, does this go to the Area Plan Commission Thursday? I mean, regardless of what goes on here today?

President Winnecke: Not this Thursday. I don’t think, it’s not on this Thursday’s agenda, I don’t think.

Glen Hile: That was the information I had.

President Winnecke: Oh, it is?

Linda Freeman: It is on this Thursday’s agenda.

President Winnecke: Okay, I apologize.

Linda Freeman: Okay.

President Winnecke: Yes?

Linda Freeman: According to Matt.

Glen Hile: I mean, does it go with an approval or disapproval?

Linda Freeman: This is preliminary approval. What this does is it allows them to go to Area Plan. Without this approval for preliminary, then they couldn’t go to Area Plan, then that would push them back further. What this does is it lets them go to Area Plan, and then you can, anything that’s beyond drainage that you want to discuss, like with Area Plan, anything in their realm. Then, who else has got, yeah, so, this is just preliminary. So, this just allows them to make that next step. Then, like I said, we do know that we’ve got your letter, and we have talked to your wife. Then, we’ve got the pictures, then we’ve been talking to Matt Wallace, and Matt Wallace is aware, and I’ve sent him your pictures that you sent me, via e-mail. So, he’s, I think he’s got large printouts of all of them. So, we’re aware of all of the stuff, and, you know, we’ll try to make sure that they get it addressed.

Glen Hile: I might also add, I mean, I’m not against him developing there.

Commissioner Tornatta: Right.

Glen Hile: I mean, what’s fair is fair, you know. I think I’ve been taken advantage of by being a nice neighbor for several years there, and putting up with the drainage as it is, and I would like to see it straightened out before this goes forward.

Linda Freeman: Right, well, with their plans they’re going to improve that road, and they’re going to bring it up to county standards. Then, they’re also going to change out this inlet here that’s not rated for traffic. They’re going to, you know, straighten that out, and then they’re going to bring this down, that’s a discharge point to the south.

Glen Hile: I see nothing about a ditch, or anything to catch the water. Nothing also about the water–

Mike O’Nan: There’s a drain across my driveway–

Glen Hile: –that runs across the road down his drive.

Linda Freeman: Right, there’s an existing 12 inch high density polyethylene that’s–

Mike O’Nan: Right, and it runs, this is a wooded area here. It runs right straight around. It actually runs in behind all of (Inaudible).

Glen Hile: I also don’t understand how it can still be widening the road here when his driveway is in the way.

Linda Freeman: Well, if he’s got any structures within the right-of-way, that will have to be addressed also. So, and then that would be something that would have to be moved. If he is in the right-of-way that he’s dedicating. Am I correct?

Glen Hile: Thank you.

Matt Wallace: We’ve been dealing with the, with Mr. Stoll, the County Engineer, and what he has asked us to do is, there’s been no mention of removing or replacing the driveway at this time. We are going to, the plan was, at this point, the county was not asking us to remove the driveway, to reconstruct the driveway, we were going to leave that as is. The existing gravel that’s there now will just be replaced with asphalt pavement, so as far as the dimension of that goes, if Mr. Hile can stand there in the road and see the gravel, that’s how much asphalt will be there. There won’t be additional widening beyond that. The road plans will have to come back before the Commissioners for approval. So, we will be back before you again, under Mr. Stoll’s review to recommend approval for those road plans. We’ll be dealing with his office as we go. Of course, we have to come back for final drainage, with those road plans. So, we’ll be back before this body again. We’ve been through sub-review, and the sub-review committee has made all their comments. We’ve not really discussed anything as far as sight distance concerns or things of that nature, but, you know, we’ll get to that with the road plans and Mr. Stoll’s office. Thursday is the Plan Commission, so, there’s ample opportunity beyond tonight for any concerns to be addressed and alleviated.

Commissioner Tornatta: Is there anyway–

Matt Wallace: But, this plan was not–

Commissioner Tornatta: Is there anyway that you can catch water running down off of Mr. Davidson’s driveway?

Matt Wallace: Sure.

Commissioner Tornatta: I mean, can, could there be a drain put in when you put the rest of the road in to catch any water coming off that area, so that it can be dissipated right and left?

Matt Wallace: We could put in a trench drain across, right, just at the joint of the–

Commissioner Tornatta: I mean, I think if–

Matt Wallace: –if the concrete’s all cut up–

Commissioner Tornatta: –we do certain things–

Matt Wallace: Yeah.

Commissioner Tornatta: –like–

Matt Wallace: To catch it before it gets into the roadway.

Commissioner Tornatta: –to catch it–

Matt Wallace: Yeah.

Commissioner Tornatta: –it might satisfy–

Matt Wallace: Yes.

Commissioner Tornatta: –the neighbors–

Matt Wallace: Sure.

Commissioner Tornatta: –to a point to where some of this other stuff goes away. Now, I don’t want to speak for the neighbors, but what we’re talking about is just one thought, and this has been done several times, is to put a trench running perpendicular to the driveway.

Glen Hile: (Inaudible.)

Commissioner Tornatta: Yeah, like a grate, and it would catch that water, which would not, in certain storms I’m sure it’s not going to help. In most storms it is going to help drain that water and get it out of the area. So, that’s–

Andy Davidson: There is one already in the driveway.

Commissioner Tornatta: Okay.

Andy Davidson: And, the pictures of the mulch–

Commissioner Tornatta: You’ll have to come on up. I’m sorry.

Andy Davidson: The pictures of the mulch in the road–

Commissioner Tornatta: Hold on, hold on, give me a second. That won’t pick you up. I’m sorry.

Andy Davidson: The pictures of the mulch in the road were the day that we had four inches of rain in ten minutes.

Commissioner Tornatta: Right.

Andy Davidson: Believe me, I, you know, didn’t enjoy paying Aching Acres to mulch my yard and then see it wash down the street. We built the house at 200 Summertime Lane 25 years ago. We built the house at 230 Summertime Lane 11 years ago. We came back in front of this Board and everybody else, got approvals to build it exactly as it is, haven’t done anything to alter that since the plans were approved 11 years ago, you know, and I would like to say with my neighbors there’s some things we can do, and my wife and I want to do to help control that. You know, and I’ll speak to them about that, but, you know, the county paved the road, they didn’t grade Summertime Lane when they paved it, they just came down and put the asphalt the way it was. When you live downhill, you know, water runs downhill and there’s not a really good way to stop it from doing that, but, I’m, you know, I’ll do whatever it takes to–

Commissioner Tornatta: I mean, I guess, our reason for sitting on this Board is, to be real honest with you, is just to see if we can’t get people to talk and get the information out. I know that being neighbors and seeing neighbors in this setting, it’s almost like a trial setup. We don’t want it to be that way, we want there to be communication going back and forth still and not have animosity one way or the other. But, in doing that, we also have seen a lot of these, you know, as I see it here, would just like to make sure that, as your water is running down that hill, that there’s some type of break. Without being there to walk to the property or whatever to see if there’s a proper swale there, I don’t know if that water’s coming directly from the top of your hill and running straight down, or if there is, there’s really not a break before it hits the street. I’m sure that initially it was designed to have a swale to stop that water at some point. So, you know, you have a perfectly good engineer here to be able to address those issues and see if we can’t come to some compromise. I know you want to be a good neighbor, and they do as well. So, hopefully, we can get the talking going, and before Thursday come out with something that’s positive for both sides.

Matt Wallace: If I could, I would like to ask could we, this is just a preliminary approval, I think we’re on, we’re roughly on the same page. I think the preliminary plan didn’t quite have enough information on it to adequately describe the project to Mr. Hile. I’m perfectly willing to work through the County Surveyor’s office, as sort of being that intermediary. We’ll work with Mr. Jeffers and we’ll allow him to keep the neighbors informed, and we’ll be glad to sit down with them and show them the final plans before we come back for final approval. I would hate to think that we would get denied a preliminary approval tonight, and then be set back a month for going to APC when it’s, you know, this is just a preliminary step.

Commissioner Tornatta: Right.

Matt Wallace: You know, we still have adequate, you know, checks and balances to go through to address all of these concerns.

Commissioner Tornatta: Right, and as far as I’m concerned, I’m not going to hold this project back, with the understanding that you guys are going to trade numbers–

Matt Wallace: Yeah.

Commissioner Tornatta: –and be in contact.

Matt Wallace: Sure.

Commissioner Tornatta: Especially between now and Thursday.

Matt Wallace: Sure.

Commissioner Tornatta: And come up with something that everyone can live with. Okay?

Matt Wallace: Thank you very much.

Commissioner Melcher: I need to repeat part of that. You said you were going to kind of go through the Surveyor’s office too. You need to give them your name and phone number so they can get a hold of you too.

Matt Wallace: Yes.

Commissioner Melcher: Because that seems to work better.

Matt Wallace: Yes.

Commissioner Melcher: You know, the Surveyor’s got a lot of projects going–

Matt Wallace: Sure.

Commissioner Melcher: –and we need to make sure that everybody’s on the same page.

Matt Wallace: Okay. No problem.

President Winnecke: Any other public comment on this project before we move on? Thank you everyone for coming out tonight on each side. At this time I would entertain a motion for the preliminary approval of Carrie Hills Number Two Subdivision.

Commissioner Tornatta: So moved.

Commissioner Melcher: Second.

President Winnecke: A motion and a second. Questions or further discussion? Hearing none, roll call vote, please.

Madelyn Grayson: Commissioner Tornatta?

Commissioner Tornatta: Yes.

Madelyn Grayson: Commissioner Melcher?

Commissioner Melcher: Yes.

Madelyn Grayson: President Winnecke?

President Winnecke: Yes.

(Motion approved 3-0)

Commissioner Tornatta: Encroachment agreement.

President Winnecke: The encroachment agreement.

Linda Freeman: The encroachment agreement, which I heard Ted mention in the Commissioners meeting. I assume you have all of the paperwork, Madelyn? Right, so we’re fine with the encroachment agreement, if you gentlemen are fine with it, and Ted’s fine with the legalities of it.

Commissioner Tornatta: We’ve seen it. Motion to approve.

Commissioner Melcher: Second.

President Winnecke: A motion and a second. Questions or discussion? Hearing none. All in favor say aye.

All Commissioners: Aye.

President Winnecke: Opposed? Okay, the encroachment agreement is approve.

(Motion approved 3-0)

President Winnecke: Any other business that you have for us, Linda?

Linda Freeman: No sir, no sir, no sir.

President Winnecke: Any other public comment to come before the Drainage Board? Hearing none, I would entertain a motion to adjourn.

Commissioner Tornatta: So moved.

Commissioner Melcher: Second.

President Winnecke: We are adjourned.

(The meeting was adjourned at 5:42 p.m.)

Those in Attendance:

Lloyd Winnecke                        Troy Tornatta                            Stephen Melcher

Bill Fluty                                    Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.          Madelyn Grayson

Linda Freeman                         Andy Davidson                         Matt Wallace

Glen Hile                                   Mike O’Nan                              Others Unidentified

Members of Media

VANDERBURGH COUNTY

DRAINAGE BOARD

Lloyd Winnecke, President

Troy Tornatta, Vice President

Stephen Melcher, Member

(Recorded and transcribed by Madelyn Grayson.)