VANDERBURGH COUNTY

DRAINAGE BOARD

DECEMBER 20, 2005

The Vanderburgh County Drainage Board met in session this 20^th day of December, 2005 at 4:34 p.m. in room 301 of the Civic Center Complex with President Cheryl Musgrave presiding.

President Musgrave: Call to order the Vanderburgh County Drainage Board meeting for Tuesday, December 20, 2005.

President Musgrave: We have on the agenda to approve the minutes of the previous meeting.

Commissioner Nix: So moved.

Commissioner Shetler: Second.

President Musgrave: All those in favor?

All Commissioners: Aye.

President Musgrave: Old business, the Schnaus petition to remove obstruction. Mr. Jeffers?

Bill Jeffers: Okay, in this matter the petitioner is Steven R. Schnaus. I previously filed a report with you last month. Does everyone have a hard copy of the report? Or does anyone need one at this time? If you do, you can stop me at anytime, I have hard copies for those who may need them, including people in the audience that might be interested. On page two you will find a copy, the County Surveyor states that a copy of the petition is in the County Surveyor’s file, accompanied by pictures, as well as copies of the domestic return receipts from what was mailed to the respondents. On this handout of what I’m reading into the microphone at this time, on the back pages you’ll see a copy of the petition. The original is held in the County Auditor’s office. Also on page two, it states the petitioner is Steven R. Schnaus, 4109 Gayne Avenue, Evansville, Indiana, and names the respondents as Wayne and Janet McCaslin, 4123 Gayne Avenue, and Bruce Darden, 4121 Gayne Avenue. Page three of the report identifies the materials constituting the alleged obstruction as trees, weeds, dirt, plugged pipes, other debris existing in the drain on the properties of those two respondents. Page four of the report states that the County Surveyor has completed the investigation that’s required by the statute, and has filed the report with the Drainage Board last month. Also on page four is the definition, by statute, of an obstruction, which is, “A condition that exists within or near a drain, etcetera”, as stated right there, according to the statute. Page five says that the statute requires notice of entry onto private property to conduct the investigation. Page six contains the notice of entry that was printed and mailed, by certified mail, to each of the five property owners along Gayne Avenue affected by this hearing. Page seven of the report you will find a definition of a drain, which the open drain along the north line of those properties does meet the definition of a, the statutory definition of a drain. Page seven states that the investigation occurred on November 7, 2005. Page eight of your report gives the Surveyor’s findings, that the County Surveyor, during the course of the investigation found conditions and materials constituting an obstruction as alleged by the petitioner, including; undersized pipes, pipes blocked or partially blocked by sediment and other debris, trees, brush, weeds growing in or near the drain, along with leaves, lawn litter, and other debris lying in or near the drain, and lying against the face of the pipes. All these materials at the locations alleged by the petitioner in his petition. So, therefore, on page nine you will find the conclusion that the County Surveyor did find, and reports, the existence of conditions, including objects and materials inside and near the drain, at locations alleged in the petition, and preventing or significantly impeding the flow of water through the drain, which are the words which define an obstruction. There may be, the petitioner is here in the audience and may wish to speak. I do not know if the respondents have come to speak at this time, and there may be other affected property owners who expressed on the telephone their desire to speak. I do not know if they’re in the audience at this time.

President Musgrave: Does the petitioner wish to speak? Mr. Steven Schnaus? Please come forward. While he’s coming forward, are there respondents, raise your hand, who will wish to also speak? Okay, so, we’ll have two respondents after that?

Commissioner Nix: There’s three.

President Musgrave: Three? Okay. Mr. Schnaus?

Steven Schnaus: Good afternoon, Commissioners. I just want to let you all know that when this initially started and the pictures that we had taken about this, I called the County Highway Department and asked them what do I need to do? So, they said, that day we had a very hard rain, obviously, and they said we’re very, very busy, and I understood that, so, I said, well, you know, first chance you get can we look this over? Or if they could. So, in the meantime I went ahead and took pictures, but I thought what other way than to take pictures of the water the way it was. So, then I went and called the engineering office also and asked them what I could do. Well, they had went and sent Pat Seib out and looked it over, and he said, told me that they had been looking into this area for two years. I know some of the neighbors, and when I got started talking with them, they’ve been trying for many, many years to get something done. Which, unfortunately, we know that this is an unplotted subdivision, according to the papers that you all have. So, that’s, obviously, something that we are responsible for as landowners to take care of this. So, then, after that, I thought, well, I asked Mr. Seib, what do I do? He said, well, maybe you need to check with the Surveyor’s office. So, that’s what I went and did was checked with the Surveyor and talked with Mr. Jeffers and we discussed the steps that I had to take. You know, not wanting to get, you know, in the middle of upsetting the neighbors, but I didn’t have no choice other than send these letters and take the steps I needed to do, because the water needs to be taken care of. One way or another, it is destroying, deteriorating the homes, including areas within mine, something has to be done. So, that’s why I’m here today to, you know, ask you all to help me do what we have to do to at least get this waterway open, so we can at least get the water away. Because, as a matter of fact, I went back there today, the gentleman to the west of me he has tried to clean his ditch out and has done a pretty decent job of it, but the water still stands in it, because it can’t go beyond that point. There’s just no way of going through it. By looking at these pictures, that’s supposed to be a ditch. Obviously, it’s not going to get through there with it being filled up. Whether it’s something, and I think a lot of it is stuff that’s been washed down from the years, because there’s not proper drainage from the main streets. Unfortunately, that’s washed across one of the gentleman’s garden and washed dirt in it, but the responsibility is ours. We have to get it cleaned out, and it’s not being done. So, that’s what I’m basically asking, just to get the support I can get, whether we all have to pay for it, you know, that’s just part of what has to be done. But, we need to do something here, because, like I say, our properties are being destroyed by every time we have a heavy rain and the water sits there, and I’ve got a crawl space that fills up with six inches or so of water every time I get a steady, a good rain. You know what that will do to a home in time. Not only that, one of the times, and I don’t know of any of these are the pictures that I had, but there’s toys floating around in this water. With toys you have kids. Obviously, we know what happens when kids in the summertime, they like to play in water, and it’s not a safe thing for anybody. We all are aware of that. So, that’s all I’m just asking is just whatever support I can get to go forward with getting this problem taken care of. Thank you very much.

President Musgrave: Thank you. Respondent? Please come forward, state your name and address.

Wayne McCaslin: My name is Wayne McCaslin. I’ve been a property owner out there for over 30 years. This is an ongoing problem that I have contacted you people, the County Garage over 30 years, for 30 years. Not only me, Mr. Tyler before Mr. Yancy died, and nothing’s ever been done. You come out and you clean out a few ditches once in a while. Now, Mr. Jeffers said it’s a plot, a plat subdivision, unrecorded. He don’t feel that they’re responsible for the ditches. Well, they’ve been out there to clean ditches out. First of all, these pictures, a lot of them are misleading. This man has been out there maybe six months. I’ve owned property for 30 years. I own two properties. The ditch behind 4129 Gayne, which is part of it is about four inches, four foot wide, three inches deep in spots. The problem that we have in on Upper Mount Vernon Road, Kenzie and Walcott. There is no drainage. I invite any of you people out there to go with a walk around with me. No one has ever done it. They won’t come out and talk to me. Nobody wants to talk to me, because I know what I’m talking about. The problem is the water’s running off of Upper Mount Vernon Road, there’s no drainage, no ditches. I can show you. Walcott, no ditches. The next one, I forget it right off hand, I get a little nervous, I get upset. I’m trying to control myself. The water comes running off of there, comes running down through Mr. Yancy, Mr. Tyler’s yard, runs over one side of his house through his driveway, the other side between his garden and his house and under his house. He would not come up here. He said he’s sick and tired of fighting with you people. Nothing’s going to be done. I doubt anything is going to be done. Nothing’s going to be done. The water runs across the alley, it runs into his yard. His yard is, oh, I would say his yard is about two foot lower than the alley to start with, and the corner that the water runs in on is only about, I would say that much higher than the ditch. If any ditches need to be cleaned out, it’s his ditch. I’ve been there 30 years. I’ve owned property for 30 years out there. I believe I’m a little bit more of knowing what’s going on out there than somebody that’s been out there less than six months. Until the water problem is taken care of coming off the hill, his problem is not going to be taken care of. The ditches behind Vaness, or Gayne Street on the, let me get this right, the east side, is supposed to, according to the letter that Jeffers sent, is supposed to take care of these certain houses. It’s taken care of 80 percent of the water coming off that hill, out of that subdivision. No one wants to come out there. Why doesn’t anybody want to come out there and walk with me and let me show you? Also, the ditch that runs on the end of my property, that is owned by the county, is plum full of water when it rains. When we had over eight inches of rain, Katrina come through, over eight inches of rain, that water is going to take a while for it to get out. Water runs across the alley, comes off the hill, across the alley, down through Tom’s side yard, which pictures you’ve seen, down in front of Bruce’s, down in front of my house. A woman back there in the green has to go out, when she walks out of the drive to get in her car, she has to take her shoes off, walk through eight to ten inches of water. He’s got a problem? He don’t have a problem. I’ve had this problem for 30 years. I want someone out there to clean their ditches out. I want someone to come out there and walk with me and let me show you, you know, where no ditches are out. Driveways are being put in where the ditch is supposed to be at. There’s small pipes under the ground. There’s another lady back here that when it rains real hard, she’s got to sandbag part of her house to keep the water from running in to her property, in to her house. These ditches are going to have to be cleaned out that are owned by Vanderburgh County. They’re full of water. They will not empty in to Carpentier Creek. Therefore, the water up above, that’s affecting it, can’t go nowhere. Where’s it going to go? Someone tell me where this water’s going to go. If it can’t get out of the ditches, where’s it going to go? My ditch is an obstruction? I don’t think so. Not when the water, I don’t know, that’s why I want someone to come out and walk with me, but nobody will. Anybody willing to put on some old clothes and some boots and come out there and let me show you what the problem is?

President Musgrave: Okay, thank you, Mr. McCaslin. Are there other speakers?

Wayne McCaslin: Uh, I asked a question. I didn’t say I was done. I want to know if anybody will come out there and walk with me? Put on old clothes and old shoes, let me show you the problem.

Commissioner Nix: I will do that. I’ll set a time up with you, if I can get your phone number. You don’t need to give it right now, but I will do that within the next week.

President Musgrave: Alright.

Wayne McCaslin: Okay, I appreciate that.

Commissioner Shetler: I have no problem with that. As I hear things it sounds like really everybody’s really on the same page. You have ultimately the same goal in mind here of getting drainage taken care of in the neighborhood. I think that’s what your ultimate goal ought to be here, to all bind together here, and work together and I think you can accomplish this.

Wayne McCaslin: No, no, the ultimate goal here is for these people that have ditches that have been covered up to make their yards look nice, that has no drainage, to put the drainage back the way it’s supposed to be. Not altering the drainage. You cannot alter the drainage. You can’t change the flow, and that’s what’s happened. You see, that’s what I mean. You people don’t understand. You’ve got to come out and let me show you.

President Musgrave: Please state your name and your address for the record.

Anna Bell Wheat: My name is Anna Bell Wheat. My address, I have property where they’re talking about. My daughter is joint owner with me. It was left to me by my parents. I’ve lived there since 1950. When the ditches were open, the way it comes, the top street from Upper Mount Vernon Road, they had a ditch on the houses that faced south. The next row of houses that was facing north, they had a ditch in their alley, and it ran that a way all the way down through that division. That a way the water run, all the ditches then ran to the west, along to a big culvert ditch that run between the subdivision and George Kochs and Son fence. Then on down towards Hogue Road there was a great big, whatever you call it, it all dumped in to there and was carried on out to the creek, river, wherever. But, they filled in the ditches, the people that owned the properties they did it years ago. They started worrying about the mosquitos and stuff. But, what they did, they didn’t, they filled the ditches in. They didn’t put pipes and put drain holes along it. Now, we’ve got our alley is where our ditch was, and my garage is literally going to collapse on the east south corner of it from the water running through there. Which, we joined Mr. Tyler’s property that he was talking about there earlier. My daughter lives there. We have cut a drain in the front porch, at the door, and have drained it back to our ditch trying to get it, and we are the ones with sandbags up there in front of our drive. They have built the road up. When we lived there, our yard was level with the road, and the houses facing us on the other street, on the same street on the other side, they went up a little embankment to get into their drive. Well, now the road is as high as their drive, yard and keeps sinking us down into a hole. I called someone out there, it was last year or the year before, and they literally stood there and practically laughed in my face. Because I was showing him what my garage was doing. The way the water was, and I explained to him, I could pull out old pictures of my brothers and sisters and I and us out there playing and show you where that road was at and how it was. He said, well, you might as well just forget it, because they ain’t going to do nothing about it no way.

Unidentified: That’s right.

Commissioner Shetler: I’m just wondering if it would be possible, because I’m trying to look for a resolution to this, that if it might be that Bill and I, I guess, if we announce it publicly and if Cheryl would like to join us, you know, that we just simply would meet some of the residents out there, walk through it, and if Bill Jeffers would like to join us as well, whatever, and somebody from the County Engineer’s office, and we would walk it, maybe table this thing for a later time and see what we could do to come to some kind of conclusion here that will be beneficial to the whole area there. Because it sounds to me like, you know, basically the problem is a serious drainage problem within the neighborhood and it needs to be dealt with. I don’t know that any one particular property owner is the one to point the finger at. It appears that there’s a whole lot of problems that need to be dealt with here. I think the Schnaus’ need to be, you know, applauded for bringing it at least to the table, because it’s gotten to this point and I think you’re getting our ear, and that’s the important thing that’s happening today. The next important thing is to get this thing resolved. To take care of the problem. I think once that’s done, we’ll all be happier. So, I think if we could work that out.

President Musgrave: Before we make a decision on that, I would like to hear from our last remonstrator. If you would come forward, sir? Are you wanting to speak after him?

Unidentified: I am.

President Musgrave: Okay.

Bill Jeffers: This actually is a hearing of petition for five specific addresses, and now you’re hearing people speak from other streets in the neighborhood. Okay?

President Musgrave: Alright.

Bill Jeffers: I want to, I just want to....it’s not that I’m opposed to you doing that, but you’re going out from the petition area. You’re now talking to people that live on Walcott who are not affected by this drain.

President Musgrave: Are you suggesting–

Bill Jeffers: So, I want to let you know that.

(Unidentified comments from the crowd.)

Bill Jeffers: I’m sorry, but the people who are speaking from Walcott are not benefitted by this drain.

President Musgrave: Please don’t interrupt him.

Bill Jeffers: You’re speaking outside the parameters of this–

President Musgrave: Of this particular petition?

Bill Jeffers: –petition. Yes. But, that’s fine with me.

Unidentified: May I?

Bill Jeffers: As long as everyone understands that.

President Musgrave: You’re next.

Dan Hermann: My name is Dan Hermann. I live at 4125 Walcott, which is the next street up from where they’re talking about. I do have pictures here, and I have had water problem’s that I’ve talked to John Stoll and things like this. This water problem is creating a really hostile environment to live in this neighborhood. That’s why when I read this little article in the paper, that’s why I showed up to try to give my opinion, try to help out to see what I could do in this small neighborhood. It is an old neighborhood. It was put in in the 50's. It was originally put in with drainage ditches and it become a health problem during the 70's the way I understand. So, when they put a sewer system in, a lot of this ditch, the way I understand, got filled in over the years, and it never got put in properly. So, now it becomes a pre-existing condition that, you know, I do have water in my house. I have neighbors that don’t like me because I’m trying to fix the situation to keep the water out of my crawl space. They have a slab home. So, you know, I don’t know really what the problem is to solve...you know, it’s a big problem and I don’t know how to solve it, because I’m just a little owner, you know, a little property owner in this Southview Park Subdivision. But, I do have problems where people have vacated the right-of-ways of the alleys of this subdivision, and it is blocking water, and it’s keeping from, you know, being able to maintain the drainage system also in here. So, for me it’s just, you know, I’ve got pictures here. I would be more than happy to work with Mr. Nix or whoever comes out and show you what we’ve got here. I know it’s, I’ve learned what, you know, the plot, the unrecorded plot means now. But, I wish that was up-front when I bought this, because I may have never bought this property. But, you know, I would just like to, anyone, you know, show you the pictures here, what I’ve got, the plot plan, and try to work something out. Or at least find out who’s responsible for this problem and what we can do about it. Thank you.

President Musgrave: Thank you. Now, sir, you’ve already spoken. Did you wish to speak?

Madelyn Grayson: I did just want to inform everyone that I’m passing around an attendance sheet. I did not do that at the beginning. Please take a moment to sign your name and address and phone numbers, so if we need to contact anyone, or if you’ve spoken we’ll have it correct on the record.

Bruce Darden: Well, I’m Bruce Darden. I’ve been, I’m at 4121. I’ve been there 30 some years, and this guy just move in, he’s been there, like Wayne said, like six months. His ground is 18 inches, 24 inches higher than our ground. He’s got water running down to our property, and he thinks we’re causing him a problem. You see it’s not our problem. It’s all running down from the road. We’re lower than his property to start with. I get water in my crawl half a year, and it’s got two sump pumps in it. You know, but water’s not running up hill to his property. So, I don’t see where the problem is. But, which the ditch is filled in behind us, which there used to be a ditch there. It’s like you say, if you want to come out and meet Wayne someday, I’m his neighbor, I’ll meet you out there with him. We can look at the ditch. Mr. Jeffers said he was coming out last week to look at my ditch. I told him it was open. My ditch is not clogged up. Trash from his property comes down and stops the ditch up, you know, it flows down from his property because he’s higher. But, the ditch is not stopped up. You get a lot of water down there, well, you seen the pictures. One of them he’s showing trash in the alley instead of the ditch. That’s, no, that one back, that’s up on the, in the alley. The ditch is over. The ditch is open. So, in that picture there you’re not seeing the ditch. But, the ditch is open. Like I say, if you want to meet Wayne sometime, I would like to come over and show you. We can sit down and look at the ditch. You can see it. It’s in an alley. You don’t have to wear rubber boots and jump in the ditch. You can see that the ditch is open, okay? There was some weeds there, but I cut them out of the ditch. But, the ditch is open, and that’s not stopping the water.

President Musgrave: Thank you. Mr. Jeffers?

Bill Jeffers: If I might take a moment or two to answer a few issues. This picture that you’re looking at now is 4121 Gayne. That’s the property belonging to Mr. Bruce Darden, who just spoke to you and said that the ditch, that you weren’t looking at the ditch. That is the ditch right there.

Bruce Darden: (Inaudible).

Bill Jeffers: That’s a picture of the ditch. Number 11 please. That’s the picture that you were looking at. That’s a picture of the ditch. That material that is outside laying in the alley is material that Mr. Darden or someone on his behalf removed from the ditch and left laying up there in the alley.

Bruce Darden: No, it was on (Inaudible).

Bill Jeffers: Those were cut, go back to number 10. Well, you can see the stumps that were cut there, but go back to number 10. That was cut out of that ditch and moved up into that alley. That’s the same pile. That is the ditch. The ditch is full of trees, as my report indicated. You see debris laying there, some paper or plastic. These pictures were taken on November 7^th. Mr. Darden did call me. I went back out there. He said he was there everyday. I knocked on his door, did not get a response. There was a truck in the driveway. I was there with Mr. Charley Alvey at that time, and we looked at this ditch. Can I have, you can see it’s full of lawn litter, as my report says. It’s full of trees. It’s full of other material and objects that impede or significantly impede the flow of water through the ditch. The reason I took a picture of the debris was to show you that it had been removed from the ditch, but it still lies in close proximity to the ditch, which the statute also addresses, that it could become washed back in to the ditch and constitute an obstruction as defined by the statute. Number 12 please. There is the entrance to Mr. Darden’s pipe that goes under his driveway entrance from the alley. You can see that that pipe is probably a 12 inch pipe, but I’m not going to dig it out and measure it. But, it looks to be about a 12 inch pipe, and less than six inches of it is open for the water to flow through. That’s what the ruler indicates. It’s also just a piece of salvaged scrap pipe. It looks like to me that old asbestos concrete type conduit that was put in, used for culvert anyhow. It used to be water pipe, before asbestos was outlawed. Number 13 please. That is a head wall of a pipe that’s basically right on the property line between Mr. Darden, at 4121 Gayne, and Mr. Wayne McCaslin who spoke to you about the entire neighborhood, who lives at 4123 Gayne. That’s an old head wall. That means there’s a pipe from there westward underneath the driveway of Mr. McCaslin to the back entrance of his garage from the driveway, or from the alley. Now, that area right there will indicate, when I went out there, oh, I think October 31^st, this was a huge hole right here. And I poked around in the hole, and you could see that the pipe from this head wall running westward was rusted out. When I came back November 7^th with a camera, someone had filled that hole in. Underneath this hole is a rusted out old pipe that’s jammed together with that previous pipe that you saw a picture of. Number 14 please. This is a ditch behind Mr. McCaslin’s home that he told you was three or four inches deep. That’s the ditch right there. It’s been cleaned out somewhat. Let’s see number 13. Or, excuse me, 15. Okay, but you can see there’s still trees in the ditch. That tree’s about four or five inches in diameter. So, you can see that ditch is quite a bit larger than it was described to you. Number 14, or 16 please. Here’s the other head wall. This is the other end of Mr. McCaslin’s pipe. You can see that it used to be maybe 12 inches in diameter, but after it rusted out, somebody shoved a four or maybe an eight inch pipe, shoved it up in there, as a liner. Let’s see number 17, and you can see that that pipe is oh, what, six inches in diameter shoved inside an old 12 inch pipe. To me that’s an undersized pipe as my report said. Let’s see number 18. There is a large amount of sediment sitting in front of that pipe. You can’t see the perspective of it very well here, but the top of this sediment is actually almost as high as the top of that pipe. I’m telling you, well, let’s go way back to like number three or four. So, what I’m saying is, as water tries to come down this drain, and it is a drain. It meets the definition of a drain. This part of the drain’s been filled in. That’s no problem, because there’s very little water that comes down through here. Let’s see number four. This is Steven Schnaus’ property from right there at that pedestal down to right about there. Let’s see number five. You can see where his neighbor who, well, it’s his neighbor, attempted to clean out his pipe, but water stands in it all the time. It was standing in there the other day when Charley and I were out there. Let’s see number six, seven. So, when water stands in these pipes, sediment collects and it will eventually fill those pipes back up. Now, they’ve cleaned them out, but why is water standing in there? Number eight. Number nine. Water is standing in there because all this is obstructed. Number ten. That’s an obstruction. Number 11, number 12. This pipe right here, when Charley and I were out there, I think, when was it Charley, Wednesday or Thursday? This pipe was completely covered by leaves and debris. You could no longer even see the opening of the pipe. Between November 7^th and last Wednesday, December 15^th or whatever it was, that was all covered up completely.

Commissioner Shetler: Mr. Jeffers?

Bill Jeffers: Yes.

Commissioner Shetler: I don’t mean to interrupt, but let me just ask you a question.

Bill Jeffers: Yes, sir.

Commissioner Shetler: In your professional opinion, do you feel then, I’m assuming by some of the things you’re saying here, perhaps I can get the answer, but do you feel as if that obstruction, obviously, you feel that it exists, but if it were cleared up, then it would resolve some of the drainage problems that Mr. Schnaus is talking about.

Bill Jeffers: It will resolve some of the standing water that you’ve seen in these pictures, and some of the water that backed up that you saw in the original report. Or the original petition.

Commissioner Shetler: And the obstructions that are there, is that the responsibility generally of the homeowner that as that was sitting there on the right-of-way, the drainage way?

Bill Jeffers: Okay, here’s the original pictures that are the, what Mr. Schnaus says are the cause of why he went to the extreme of filing this petition. Here’s after a rainfall. It’s my opinion, and the determination I made from my field investigation that if these undersized and clogged up pipes were removed from the drain, along with the other materials that meet the definition of an obstruction by statute, if all that was removed from this open drain, the water would flow more freely, would be less inhibited, as it flowed down through this mutual drain that serves these five properties.

President Musgrave: And as to his question as to who’s responsibility it is to have these cleaned, is that the property owner?

Commissioner Shetler: As far as particularly on a regular basis. Is this a culmination of not staying, you know, keeping with the maintenance on a yearly basis or on a routine basis? Or is this something that is very difficult for a property owner to maintain anyway?

Bill Jeffers: All of the above. But, yes, it, that should be something that should be stated clearly. This is an unrecorded subdivision. All the property within this subdivision is private property. This is an alley...picture number three. On the plat this is a dedicated alley. You can see the rock on it. How that rock got there, I do not know, but because it’s an unrecorded alley, or unrecorded subdivision, that is not the property of Vanderburgh County, as Mr. McCaslin indicated when he first spoke to you. This is not Vanderburgh County infrastructure.

President Musgrave: So, it is the responsibility–

Bill Jeffers: Of the private property owner–

President Musgrave: of the property owners–

Bill Jeffers: –to maintain their private property and their private drain.

President Musgrave: The ditches, the alley?

Bill Jeffers: Yes, Ma’am.

President Musgrave: So, you have investigated Mr. Schnaus’ petition regarding the drainage behind Gayne Drive.

Bill Jeffers: Yes, Ma’am.

President Musgrave: And you have found that it is obstructed, and you have brought that evidence to us, and now you would ask us to agree with that finding so that you could move forward with a remedy as accorded to you by law.

Bill Jeffers: Just a moment.

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Well, actually, what the statute, what we have here is evidence presented by the County Surveyor, he’s the one that did the study, and he’s reporting the results of that study, and he’s telling us what he thinks. Based on that, you have to decide whether or not two things; you believe them based on what he’s told you that an obstruction exists as alleged in the petition, and number two, whether removal of the obstruction will promote better drainage. His recommendation is that both of those things occur. You have to make the finding however. You either accept his recommendation, or you do in fact go out and look at it yourself. But, you have to have some basis for making the finding. It’s perfectly appropriate to make the finding based on his study.

Bill Jeffers: Before you go any further, and I appreciate Mr. Ziemer pointing that out. It’s in my script to have read to you, but I hadn’t gotten to that point yet. But, it’s absolutely correct–

President Musgrave: That is really annoying. (Referring to the static in the microphones.)

Bill Jeffers: Yes, it is. You’re still picking me up, aren’t you, Madelyn?

Madelyn Grayson: You can have...is your microphone on?

Bill Jeffers: Yes.

Madelyn Grayson: It’s just feedback when Commissioner Shetler’s is on for some reason.

President Musgrave: He turned his off, so you can move closer to the mic.

Bill Jeffers: The board’s required to find whether the obstruction exists. You don’t have to find that today. The statute actually reads,”if after the hearing”.

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Yes, but I’m going to suggest the board isn’t going to know anything else next week than what it knows today. So, I’m not sure why they would wait.

Bill Jeffers: Other than they said they were going to go out and look.

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: Well, excuse me, on that score, I’m not sure whether we’re talking about people who are affected by this petition, or people who aren’t affected by the petition.

Bill Jeffers: Correct.

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: And those are two different things.

Bill Jeffers: Right, and I did want to address that. I’m not trying to ignore the big picture. This entire neighborhood is in a drainage shambles. I’ve responded to the Walcott calls from Dan Hermann and others, his neighbor. Mr. Walcott didn’t tell you, but he has sought the advice of an attorney. The attorney gave him advice. It’s in shambles out there. John Stoll, I don’t know who went out and laughed at these individuals, but John Stoll and his department, Pat Seib and others have been out to Walcott, have been out to Gayne, and have worked specifically with Mr. Hermann to install a new drop basin out in front of his house in the right-of-way, you know, because you do have county right-of-way in Walcott. You do have county right-of-way in Gayne. That’s where they can work, and that’s what they have done. I’m not trying to ignore the big picture in this hearing. I’m trying to address the small picture as narrowly as I can within the confines of this statute, which I may or may not totally agree with this statute. There are things in this statute that aren’t perfect. But, I’m trying to address it there. So, that’s where we find ourselves is do you find an obstruction, and do you determine whether it’s caused intentionally or unintentionally?

President Musgrave: Alright, Commissioners, you indicated that you might want to go visit, but you indicated that when you were hearing from people who do not live on Gayne Drive, which is the subject of this petition. Do you want to make a finding based on this petition, and then also go visit the larger area? Or do you want to table the whole matter, visit the larger area and bring it back? Up to you.

Commissioner Shetler: I don’t think there’s any doubt that there’s obstruction. Here’s where I come up with a little bit of a problem. I find that often times it is difficult for a homeowner to have the kind of equipment that it may take in order to remove those kind of obstructions. It becomes very costly, and I’m not so sure that the burden should be placed solely on the property owners. That there ought to be a way that maybe we could find a resolution to it, to help aid them in some way here. Now, I think there is a bigger picture that needs to be looked at, and I don’t know if Mr. Schnaus is willing to, you know, table this until a point in time. Like I said, I do applaud them, because I think that if it were not for their petition and their efforts today, this wouldn’t have come before us and get a chance to actually go out on site and review this and look at it and resolve the problem, hopefully.

Commissioner Nix: I guess, the concern I have is that this is one area of many areas in the county that we do have drainage problems. I’m just a little reluctant to have, to participate financially in private property on drainage issues from the standpoint of, if you do it here, where do you stop? I mean, you’ve got to, now, saying that, Mr. Jeffers has pointed out some very valid things here today that I think that we, and I still would like to go out and look at this. Let me say for the record too, I personally was not aware of this situation out there at all until our last Drainage Board meeting. Excuse me just a second.

(Tape change)

Commissioner Nix: I personally was not aware of this situation until our last, I guess it was our last Drainage Board meeting, Mr. Jeffers, when this came–

Bill Jeffers: Yes, sir.

Commissioner Nix: –to light? So, this is fairly new to us. You’ll find that myself and the other two Commissioners don’t sit on our hands, we, if we have a problem with something, we’ll address it. But, I have a concern about the county working on private property for improvements. To me, I just really have a serious concern with that. Now, if it’s been done in the past, there’s a lot of things that have been done in the past, we can’t help those things right now. But, I would like to, as Commissioner Shetler said, visit the site and take a look. If there are things that the county can do to improve this situation within our legal means, I’m all for that. But, I think the homeowners need to take this thing and as a group, collectively, come up with some solutions that would solve this situation. You know, once again, you know, we can give recommendations from the County Engineer and Mr. Jeffers and County Highway, and anything we can do within our means, but I’m just not, I just think that we need to draw the line and help if we can.

President Musgrave: So, is your motion to table this while you, and all of us, some of us go observe the situation?

Commissioner Nix: I would like to make that motion, yes.

Commissioner Shetler: I’ll second. Then I have a question. Mr. Schnaus, would that be okay with you?

Steven Schnaus: Yes, that would be fine with me, because, like I said, I’m here to solve this problem, but we need to do it as neighbors. I’m not here to draw a wedge between anybody. We all need to get this worked out. Yes, I have no problem with you tabling this, as long as we get it addressed in a manner that’s reasonable for everybody. (Inaudible) yes, or no (Inaudible).

President Musgrave: For the record, Mr. Schnaus indicated, yes, since he was so far away from the microphone.

Commissioner Shetler: I guess, what we’ll do is maybe get their numbers and stuff, and then B.J. or somebody can set up a time where we all can meet then.

Commissioner Nix: We have to notice the media.

President Musgrave: So, afterward–

Commissioner Nix: By law, to all meet together, so.

President Musgrave: –we will come to you for your phone numbers. So, we have a motion and a second on the floor. Is there any further discussion on this motion? All those in favor?

All Commissioners: Aye.

President Musgrave: The motion carries. So, at this time, this matter is tabled. We have other items on our agenda, so, I would ask that those who are interested in being contacted for the group meeting, you have, she has the sign up sheet, and she will ask you to put your phone numbers on it and any other contact method that you would prefer to have. So, all your phone numbers be on there and we will be in touch with you. Thank you.

President Musgrave: Mr. Jeffers, we have several other matters on tonight’s agenda, can we quickly move through these?

Bill Jeffers: First is Heartland Crossing, Section Three. It’s a final drainage plan. It’s on your desk. It’s been reviewed by the Vanderburgh County Surveyor and found to comport with the drainage ordinance. The representative is here in the audience, if you should have any questions. The County Surveyor recommends approval of Heartland Crossing, Section Three, final drainage plan.

Commissioner Shetler: So moved.

Commissioner Nix: Second.

President Musgrave: All those in favor?

All Commissioners: Aye.

President Musgrave: The motion carries.

President Musgrave: We move swiftly to Crossroads Commercial Replat of lot six, final drainage plan.

Bill Jeffers: This is also a final drainage plan. It’s for a furniture company occupying a replat of lot six in Crossroads Commercial Subdivision. It was submitted by Bernardin Lochmueller and Associates, Jim Farney, Engineer. The County Surveyor has reviewed the plan and found it comports with the county drainage ordinance and recommends approval.

Commissioner Nix: Move approval.

Commissioner Shetler: Second.

President Musgrave: All those in favor?

All Commissioners: Aye.

President Musgrave: Rapidly moving to Cross Pointe, Section Six, preliminary drainage plan.

Bill Jeffers: Cross Pointe, Section Six is a preliminary drainage plan on your desk at this time, submitted by Morley and Associates, Dave Schmenke, Engineer, who is in the audience to answer any questions. The County Surveyor has reviewed it and found it compliant and recommends approval of the preliminary drainage plan for Cross Pointe, Section Six.

Commissioner Nix: So moved.

Commissioner Shetler: Second.

President Musgrave: One point of discussion, if this roadway is widened at any point in the future, will this drainage plan have to be revisited?

Bill Jeffers: I hope this roadway is widened to a sufficient width, Cross Pointe Boulevard. It will not affect the drainage plan. You will see a final drainage plan after this anyway.

President Musgrave: All those in favor?

All Commissioners: Aye.

President Musgrave: The motion carries.

President Musgrave: Other business, sign document for recording relaxed right-of-entry.

Bill Jeffers: Okay, last month you relaxed the right-of-entry for lot 26 of Burkhardt Crossing. It’s coming up on your screen. We’re not as fast on the screen as we are at the microphone. Your recording secretary has a document for you to sign so that we may record it when we receive a check in the amount of the recording fee.

Madelyn Grayson: We still have not received that.

President Musgrave: Okay, you don’t need a motion–

Bill Jeffers: I’m waiting on that from Mr. Morley.

President Musgrave: –on that, do you?

President Musgrave: Ditch maintenance claims?

Bill Jeffers: The ditch maintenance claims that you have on your desk at this time are for work that’s been completed in your regulated drains according to the contracts that you’ve signed for 2005 with the contractors. The work has been inspected and approved by the County Surveyor. The necessary paperwork is attached, and recommendation for approval.

Commissioner Nix: So moved.

Commissioner Shetler: Second.

President Musgrave: All those in favor?

All Commissioners: Aye.

President Musgrave: The motion carries.

President Musgrave: Persons wishing to address the board?

President Musgrave: Questions or comments from the board? I have one comment, Mr. Jeffers made a very valuable suggestion during the calendar planning that we had for next year, and his suggestion consists of having weekly drainage board meetings so that this, the drainage plans can move more quickly through the process. I thank you for that. Our legal ad has been written to that effect. So, the community who participates in drainage board has notice now that we will be hearing those weekly, and we will hear other matters, including claims, weekly, or as you see fit, Mr. Jeffers. If you put them on the agenda and let us know and we’ll handle it.

Bill Jeffers: I have one question on that, can we have one as soon as January 3^rd the way you advertised? That would be your first meeting of the year, I believe.

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: The, it’s at that meeting that the ordinance is going to be adopted setting these meetings immediately following. So, unless we can get notice out to that effect. You can have a special drainage board meeting.

President Musgrave: Do you want one?

Bill Jeffers: We’re anticipating a plan that’s critical to the developer known as Wynnfield Subdivision, Section Two that should be ready to come to that meeting.

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: So, the Commissioners could call a special meeting of the, or the drainage board members could call a special meeting of the drainage board, give customary notice to the media, but the purpose of that meeting would be solely the issue that you’re describing.

Bill Jeffers: Wynnfield, Section Two.

President Musgrave: May I direct the secretary to do that without a motion? Or do I need a motion?

Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.: No, I don’t think you need a motion.

President Musgrave: Alright. Do you have that down? Alright.

Bill Jeffers: Thank you.

President Musgrave: So, please notify–

Bill Jeffers: Merry Christmas, look forward to working with you next year.

President Musgrave: Same here.

Commissioner Nix: Thank you, Bill. Appreciate your work.

President Musgrave: Motion to adjourn?

Commissioner Nix: Motion to adjourn.

Commissioner Shetler: Second.

President Musgrave: All those in favor?

Commissioners: Aye.

(The meeting was adjourned at 5:25 p.m.)

         Those in Attendance:

         Cheryl Musgrave                      Bill Nix                            Tom Shetler, Jr.

         Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.                    Bill Jeffers                       Madelyn Grayson

         Steven Schnaus                       Wayne McCaslin            Anna Bell Wheat

         Dan Hermann                           Bruce Darden                 Others Unidentified

         Members of Media

VANDERBURGH COUNTY

DRAINAGE BOARD

Cheryl Musgrave, President

Bill Nix, Vice President

Tom Shetler, Jr., Member

Recorded and transcribed by Madelyn Grayson.