VANDERBURGH COUNTY

DRAINAGE BOARD

AUGUST 5, 2008

The Vanderburgh County Drainage Board met in session this 5^th day of August, 2008 at 6:03 p.m. in room 301 of the Civic Center Complex with President Troy Tornatta presiding.

President Tornatta: We will start the Vanderburgh County Drainage Board meeting immediately, if not sooner. Mr. Jeffers, we’ll open up the meeting, Tuesday, August 5, 2008. It’s approximately three minutes after six.

President Tornatta: Do I have a motion to approve prior meetings minutes?

Commissioner Nix: So moved.

Commissioner Korb: Second.

President Tornatta: And so ordered.

President Tornatta: Mr. Jeffers?

Bill Jeffers: Good evening, Bill Jeffers, Vanderburgh County Surveyor and technical advisor to the Drainage Board.

President Tornatta: Is that on your business card?

Bill Jeffers: No, that costs extra.

President Tornatta: Yeah, have that made.

Bill Jeffers: Okay. Does everyone have an agenda?

Madelyn Grayson: I’ve got some extras, if anyone needs one.

Commissioner Korb: Are we being quizzed on it later?

Commissioner Nix: It’s behind your minutes.

Commissioner Korb: I’ve got it.

Bill Jeffers: Okay. First item of business is, excuse me, Deerfield, Section Four, preliminary Drainage Plan, of which I have a copy if anyone would like to see it. Would you like to share?

Commissioner Korb: Sure.

Bill Jeffers: In the spirit of sharing.

President Tornatta: Are you making fun?

Bill Jeffers: Of course I’m making fun.

President Tornatta: How dare you.

Bill Jeffers: And, you’ll notice on there I have some handwritten notes that are the result of a meeting we had earlier today, around 3:30 to 4:00 or so, with several residents of Deerfield Villa, and Deerfield Subdivision, Sections Two and Three. They came to our office to meet with Keith Poff, the design engineer from Sitecon, and with me to discuss some of their concerns about Deerfield, Section Four. Some specific drainage issues that they have. I think we had a very productive meeting. Several of those property owners have had issues for several years, since about 2003 or so, that they’ve had to take care of themselves. Some, basically, unfinished business that we hope will be finished with the implementation of Deerfield, Section Four. As I said, this is a preliminary plan that allows the plat to go forward to Area Plan Commission next Thursday. Then, Keith Poff from Sitecon will come back the first week or so of September with a final drainage plan that will iron out all the details that we discussed in the previous meeting, and anything else we discover between now and then that needs to be corrected or appropriately addressed by the final drainage plan. The preliminary drainage plan conforms substantially with the code, and I recommend approval.

Commissioner Nix: So moved.

Commissioner Korb: Second.

President Tornatta: So ordered.

Bill Jeffers: The second item of business is Hirsch Estates. It’s also a preliminary drainage plan with approval required so that it can move forward to Area Plan Commission. This is way out on Baseline Road, about a half a mile west of 57. On the drainage plan I gave you, it says Hirsch Minor Subdivision, but in Vanderburgh County it’s a major subdivision simply because it’s three lots. Otherwise, it would be a minor subdivision. One fella is selling the house on the front lot, building a house on the second lot, and has a third lot surplus that he wants to sell to balance out. A very simple plan. It will come back to you as a final plan to iron out any details that may come forward between now and September. It comports with the drainage code. I recommend approval.

Commissioner Nix: So moved.

Commissioner Korb: Second.

President Tornatta: So ordered.

Bill Jeffers: Okay, the next item of business is the relaxation of the right-of-way, or right-of-entry of Stockfleth Ditch. If you’ll look on your screen you’ll see Kimber Green Apartments, which is owned currently by RCR Properties LLC, Broadmoor Drive, Champagne, Illinois. Stockfleth Ditch is, its right-of-entry is outlined in red on your screen. It runs from the Lloyd Expressway north, under Virginia Street and on up to Morgan Avenue. The statutory right-of-entry is 75 feet, either side of the top of bank. That right-of-entry actually infringes onto the apartment buildings themselves, which were built several decades ago, before I was County Surveyor, and we’re cleaning up some loose ends here. Also, when we get to the next item of business, you’ll see another very good reason why we’re relaxing the right-of-entry. It is an urban drain, and since 1981, urban drains can be relaxed to no less than 25 feet from the top of the bank. In this case we’re recommending 40 feet from the west property line of Kimber Green Apartments, which allows 35 feet working space between the top of the bank and the new line. The County Surveyor recommends that you grant this relaxation, and it will be recorded in a document we will subsequently present to you. And the recommendation is that you relax it as shown on that document. Do you have one of those in front of you?

Commissioner Nix: It basically follows the outline in this drawing, is that correct?

Bill Jeffers: Yes, sir.

Commissioner Nix: Move approval.

Commissioner Korb: Second.

President Tornatta: So ordered.

Bill Jeffers: Okay, then comes Keith Poff, the design engineer who is back here present, if you need to ask any questions. His client now is the Water and Sewer Utility, who’s responsibility is to put in a new sewer line that runs parallel and east of Stockfleth Ditch and within the newly relaxed 40 foot right-of-entry. The purpose of the sewer line is to more adequately serve those persons serviced by the sewer line. Our attorney requires that any installation within a right-of-entry be covered by this encroachment agreement, which indemnifies the county against any loss or damages, etcetera, to anyone, as those loss and damages may occur within the right-of-entry. I believe your attorney has indicated that the document is in order. We are awaiting a certificate of insurance from Champagne, Illinois. No, from the utility company, I guess. But, in any case, we’re awaiting some signatures, and the certificate of insurance, but I’m asking you to approve the legal form as it’s been filled out for the drainage easement encroachment agreement presented to you at this time. We can take care of the rest of it in office.

Madelyn Grayson: We actually have the document signed. Keith brought that today. We don’t have the certificate of insurance, but we’ve got the signed document.

Bill Jeffers: Okay, so, you did receive the signatures, and you’re waiting for the certificate of insurance?

Madelyn Grayson: Right.

Bill Jeffers: We will not record this and allow them to begin construction until the certificate of insurance is filed with the County Auditor.

President Tornatta: Do we have a motion?

Commissioner Nix: So moved.

Commissioner Korb: Second.

President Tornatta: So ordered.

Bill Jeffers: The last item of business I have to bring before you at this time is the hearing of the Roger Huff petition, which came to you, Roger Huff of 2123 Volkmann Road, asking the Drainage Board to order the removal of certain alleged obstructions on the property of Jason Schmitt, 2125 Volkmann Road. The alleged obstruction consisting of the following materials; soil, gravel, inadequate drainage pipes of miscellaneous types, and of an inadequate circumference or diameter to handle the water, etcetera. The County Surveyor did go out, and during his investigation confirmed the existence of the alleged obstructions in the form and at the locations so said by Roger Huff, and attempted to work with Mr. Jason Schmitt to relieve the situation. I believe we have some pictures to show you the, we’ll go with Huff’s first to show the alleged obstruction. Here’s the undersized pipe that was placed in the watercourse. The bottom picture shows you garden soil. Mr. Huff’s property is on the right hand side of the screen. It’s the grass area. You can see the vegetation has grown up in a damp situation, because on the left hand side of the screen is excess soil that’s been imported into the garden area owned by Mr. Schmitt, thereby blocking the water coming down the hill from the Huff property. Let’s see some more pictures. This area, on the top picture is just showing a close up of the chronically wet area, the green area, again, is Mr. Huff’s property, and then on the right you can see some stone and some earth that was placed in the water course, holding the water back, as alleged. The bottom picture is the driveway to Mr. Huff’s property. Back up one. These pictures are so exciting that they move quickly. Okay, let’s see the next picture. Okay, again, on the right hand side is Mr. Schmitt’s property. You can see the excess dirt that’s been imported to form his garden. On the left is Mr. Huff’s property, where you can see that water’s been backed up for a period of time that allows the type of vegetation that grows in wet areas, sedges, different kinds of grass like that. The bottom picture is just the same thing taken from a greater distance away. Okay, what else have we got? Then that is the garden area that Mr. Schmitt created with the dirt that he brought in, and you can see the old watercourse is trying to re-establish itself across there. That shows you that it has indeed been obstructed, and it’s trying to recreate itself. So, Mr. Schmitt did some work, and brought in some pictures to show the work that he had done. Actually, Tara Brown, his fiancé, brought in the pictures, and was kind enough to sit down with us and create this Power Point. Let’s see, that’s just an overview of the properties. The three pictures are showing the home of Jason Schmitt on the property, and the fourth picture is the driveway going up the hill to Mr. Huff’s property. We’re going to be looking at pipes, one of the alleged obstructions is a pipe that goes under the driveway to Mr. Huff’s property. There’s been a pipe there for many, many years, and Mr. Huff alleges that Mr. Schmitt connected on some undersized pipes when he filled the ditch. Mr. Schmitt acknowledges that, and replaced them with larger pipes. Mr. Schmitt also had tile underneath the garden, but that was pretty much judged to be insufficient to handle the flow, and then he re-opened the waterway in the last week or two. This is showing pipes that existed under the driveway. Tara brought these in to show you the size pipe that was under the driveway that Jason connected to. Then, you see members of the Schmitt family standing close, whoever it is, standing close to the waterway that went through the area. This is the waterway that was closed up and piped. What do we have next? Some more pictures of the waterway after it was piped. You can see the white pipe coming out here. That’s the alleged undersized pipe. I confirmed that it was too small. That’s not the one he replaced it with, that’s the one under the driveway, but I did view the one he replaced, here’s the one that it’s been replaced with. So, what used to be about an eight inch pipe, is now an 18 inch corrugated, plastic pipe that Jason Schmitt connected, which, I think that an 18 inch pipe is adequate to handle the flow from what essentially is two acres of tree farm on one side of the driveway, and two acres of rough pasture on the other side of the driveway.

Commissioner Korb: Bill, where are we going with this?

Bill Jeffers: To its conclusion.

Commissioner Korb: Okay.

Bill Jeffers: Okay, apparently I’ve presented enough information from my side of it. I would then suggest you listen to Mr. Huff’s point of view, and then Mr. Schmitt’s rebuttal, and then I will conclude my remarks after they have made their presentations.

President Tornatta: How are you doing?

Roger Huff: I find myself in a position that I’ve never found myself in before.

President Tornatta: Name and address.

Roger Huff: My name and address? My name is Roger Huff, and I now live in Newburgh, because I can no longer live near Mr. Schmitt, due to the catastrophe that he’s created at the bottom of the hill. But, I do still own the property on Volkmann Road, and we’re hoping to get this situation, at least with the flooding squared away. I think you folks will be seeing me again, due to a number of other issues out there. I won’t bore you with that tonight. However, the piece of pipe that (Inaudible) Jason Schmitt has put back into the ditch, and he may well have, is going to handle water which flows from an adjacent property. I’ve got some photographs, and I don’t know that they’re going to be adequate. I think that Mr. Jeffers told me he was going to leave this open, because I fully believe that the problem’s not even close to being rectified. Do you mind if I approach?

President Tornatta: Sure.

Roger Huff: The area in question that flooded was this entire area that you see here. He had built a dam and so forth here, and brought in, I don’t know, ten, fifteen triaxles of soil and piled it there, gravel, debris, garbage, you know, oil floating in it, the whole nine yards. So, anyway, the water backed up, and what he’s done now is he’s dug out some sort of a little entrenchment which goes absolutely nowhere but uphill. The water that should enter that pipe, and, you know, flow out, comes from an adjacent property entirely. It has absolutely nothing to do with this issue. This water is being held on my property by the fact that he’s brought in all of this soil and obstructed the natural flow of the water down the hill and into a ditch that’s been there since my father was a small boy. A large ditch. You know, the fact that he put that pipe in, that’s all great, because, you know, it was just, you know, the fact that he had the undersized pipe, the water coming from the adjacent properties, I mean, that’s great that he put that there, because it only made the condition worse. But, it doesn’t, this is a band-aid–

Commissioner Korb: Is it–

Roger Huff: –this water is still going to flood my property, because there is an enormous amount of dirt and garbage that’s been brought in there and dumped. There’s ground asphalt, I mean, this guy is parking commercial vehicles all up in this area. It’s like an acre.

Commissioner Korb: Excuse me. What we’re looking at now, I don’t mean to interrupt you, but what we’re looking at, is that where he’s filled in and put the pipe, and then put dirt over that? Was that the former ditch?

Roger Huff: No, sir. This doesn’t even show the dirt, the ditch. This is an area that used to be a lawn type area, long ago, and what you’re looking at now is an area that he’s filled in with, I don’t even know how many triaxles worth of soil.

Commissioner Korb: Okay.

Roger Huff: I mean, an enormous number. The ditch–

Commissioner Korb: And, does that impede the flow of the water? I’m assuming it does.

Roger Huff: The water has nowhere to go except to stand on my land.

Commissioner Korb: Right, okay.

Roger Huff: And, furthermore, what he’s done is he’s built an illegal building, without a permit, out and over the ditch, which, that’s why I say, for that and a number of other reasons you’re going to see me again. Because, almost from the beginning of the road to the end of this guy’s property, it’s nothing but total and complete violation of county ordinances. I mean, we’ve been run out of our home by this individual. He’s shot at our house. There’s seven, eight police reports, my renters are terrified of him. You know, it’s got to end with him somewhere. But, what I want to see the county do, is get the Engineer’s office out there, the Plan Commission office out there, Bill Jeffers out there, and start dealing with this guy, because the rest of us pay our taxes, the rest of us follow the laws and the statutes and the guidelines that the county lays out for us to follow. This guy blatantly defies it all. He’s broken the pipes in front of the road, water gurgles up out of the, you know, out of, I’ve been personally reprimanded by people that were, you know, while I was waiting for my kids to get on the school bus, water and mud just running out into the road, these people stop and say, what’s wrong with you people? Why is the road like this? You know, I think, folks, I don’t have anything to do with this. It’s the guy that lives right here. I live at the top of the hill. But, you know, it’s just time that something’s done with this individual. He’s got a criminal history, and I know this for a fact, because law enforcement has shown it to me. It’s as long as both of my legs.

Commissioner Nix: Sir.

President Tornatta: Hold on.

Commissioner Nix: Please stick with the facts that you’re here for today.

Roger Huff: The facts are this, you can start at the beginning of Jason Schmitt’s property and go to the end, and it is violation after violation after violation of county ordinances. Now, we’re here to deal with the drainage tonight, that pipe may well cure waterflow coming off of the adjacent property running under the driveway. That is yet to be seen because we are in a dry season. But, he’s done nothing here, except now build about a 10,000 foot chicken pen.

Commissioner Korb: Mr. Jeffers, does he have to do, when he makes these kinds of improvements on the property, is that a running through your office type thing for drainage? How does that work please?

Bill Jeffers: Do you have the plat of the subdivision?

Roger Huff: Yes, I do.

Christi Huff: I would like to ask something, if it’s okay, while he’s reviewing that. I’m Christi Huff, and I reside at that residence also.

Roger Huff: You used to.

Christi Huff: Correct, before we had to move out. Now, the, to just maybe better clarify, what you see there is where the area that the water had to run into the drainage ditch that used to be there, because it would come off of our property, which is a sloped area, come down into the area, and continue to drain down into the ditch that is now covered. So, we don’t have that ditch for the water to drain into, and now we have the area built up and somewhat dammed up, so the water then settles onto our property, which creates, you know, this swampy looking area that we cannot maintain. It also creates a very flooded area, and muddy area, whenever there’s heavy rain. There doesn’t even have to be heavy rain, any rain. Furthermore, we have been trying to sell our home, this presents a health violation on our property, from what I understand, and we have been unable to sell our home. Realtors will not market our home anymore, because of the condition of the property, of this, and also the conditions that are now on our property, which are the flooded, swampy areas.

Roger Huff: That’s the next thing, you know, we would like nothing better than to be as far away from this person as we can be. We cannot get a realtor in this county to take our land and put it on the market, because we’re told, by one after another, that man at the bottom of the hill is a huge liability, we cannot ethically sell your land to anyone without disclosing what the possibilities are at the end of the lane. We’re landlocked by this guy. We need help from the county to get this disaster at the bottom of the hill squared away so that we can get this house on the market and get out. We’re running our children from Newburgh to Scott school now.

Christi Huff: Which is a 30 minute drive, to and from.

Roger Huff: We want to get our house on the market. We want to get away from this guy, but we cannot do it. If the Plan Commission, the Surveyor, if the Engineer would come out and look at this land--

President Tornatta: Right.

Roger Huff: –it’s so obvious.

President Tornatta: Well, I tell you what, not to cut anybody off, but we’re kind of redundant, running into some things.

Roger Huff: Okay.

President Tornatta: Let’s let him look at the plat and give a rendering on that, and then, if we could, we’ll hear from the remonstrators, and then we’ll have you back up to finish, okay?

Christi Huff: And, I would also like to add that whenever he made the Power Point presentation, they said this area was for a garden. It is now enclosed with a huge chicken pen and fencing, which all of that--

Roger Huff: He’s done that in the last three days.

President Tornatta: Okay.

Christi Huff: All of that will be drained onto our property, the chicken poop and anything else that is put in there.

President Tornatta: Okay.

Bill Jeffers: I believe Mr., or Commissioner Korb’s question was what the Vanderburgh County Surveyor’s office, what they would have to come to us with? It’s a minor subdivision, it does not create 10,000 square feet of new, hard surface, therefore, it is not, there are no projects that would be, you know, residential projects. So, it did not go through the Vanderburgh County Surveyor’s review, like a major subdivision would. I did not bring a drainage plan to you, because it does not anticipate 10,000 square feet of new, hard surface. The only notations on the plat were that the watercourses and the open drains or ditches that existed on the individual parcels had to be maintained by the owners of those parcels. There was no formal plan, because it’s a minor sub.

Commissioner Korb: So, there’s no permitting that they would have had to get? There is nothing that–

Bill Jeffers: If someone would want to put in a new driveway culvert out at Volkmann Road–

Commissioner Korb: Uh-huh.

Bill Jeffers: –for the lane, they would need a permit from the County Engineer’s office for a new driveway culvert. If someone were to establish 10,000 square feet or more of new, hard surface, they would have to bring a plan to your office. I mean, there’s acreage there that they could do that–

Commissioner Korb: Sure.

Bill Jeffers: –if they put up a large horse barn or something. But, that has not occurred yet. The only other issue that comes before your Board, the Drainage Board, or would come to my office is the drainage issue, the statutory ability of Mr. Huff to file a petition alleging the obstruction of a natural surface watercourse, which I show you in this picture. That is a natural surface watercourse. The obstruction is the dirt that was imported and placed there by Jason Schmitt. I’m glad to hear Mr. Huff say that the pipe is not an issue. I thought the pipe was an issue, because it had been placed in the ditch and it was undersized. Mr. Schmitt has subsequently taken that pipe out of the ditch and replaced it with an 18 inch tile, as I showed you. I’m glad to hear that issue has gone away. So, now we’re left with the issue of the obstruction of the natural watercourse, beginning at Mr. Huff’s north line, which coincides with Mr. Schmitt’s south line. I asked Mr. Schmitt to widen that watercourse and restore it to an open, wide watercourse. He began doing that, he removed all the obstructions from the property line, those railroad ties, those rocks, all that’s been removed. He began to open up the watercourse. I went out there Friday and spoke with his fiancé, she said that she would convey to him that he needed to finish that job. I went back yesterday, and a chicken coop has been erected over the watercourse, as Mr. Huff just told you. The chicken coop consists of a six by six wood post, like beams that came out of a barn and a netting. It’s just like a nylon netting that holds chickens in and keeps chicken hawks out.

Commissioner Korb: Your professional opinion about all this, Bill, is what? I mean–

Bill Jeffers: Professional opinion?

Commissioner Nix: Can we possibly get that in a summation, after we hear the remonstrators?

Commissioner Korb: Yeah, sure. I’m just, I’m hearing one side of it. I’m hearing that basically the Huff’s are up a creek, they don’t have much of a leg to stand on, basically.

Bill Jeffers: No, they’re here because–

President Tornatta: Right.

Bill Jeffers: –you can order the obstruction removed.

Commissioner Korb: Great. That’s my question. So, I’ll let you sum that later. Thanks.

Roger Huff: Can I just (Inaudible)--

President Tornatta: Hold on.

Roger Huff: –here, just rapidly? First and foremost–

President Tornatta: Come up to the podium, please.

Roger Huff: Yeah, first and foremost, Bill, and I don’t mean to knock you down there, but I’m not saying that that pipe was adequate. I’m saying that he was told to put something in there, and he did. I want to make this clear, we don’t know what’s going to happen, because we haven’t had any hard rains.

Commissioner Korb: Uh-huh.

Roger Huff: Secondly, it says right here, and, you know, this is according to you folks, your rules and regs, any changes to a waterway that is classified as a legal drain, must have the approval of the plans by the County Drainage Board. Well, he certainly didn’t apply for a permit. He certainly didn’t get one. He didn’t ask us what we thought about it. He just threw some little bitty pipe in there and covered the whole mess up.

President Tornatta: Right.

Roger Huff: That’s how it happened.

President Tornatta: Okay. Mr. Jeffers, probably that’s not classified as a legal drain, it’s a natural waterway.

Bill Jeffers: This is a private drain, or a mutual drain at best. It’s not a legal drain, which is common parlance for a regulated drain.

President Tornatta: Right.

Bill Jeffers: You know what a regulated drain is, that’s the large ditches we deal with. We have 80 miles of them, and this certainly is not one.

President Tornatta: Okay, Jason and fiancé?

Tara Brown: Can I go back to the others?

President Tornatta: Names, address.

Jason Schmitt: Jason Schmitt, 2125 Volkmann.

President Tornatta: Can you speak up a little bit.

Jason Schmitt: Jason Schmitt, 2125 Volkmann.

Tara Brown: Tara Brown, 2125 Volkmann Road.

President Tornatta: Okay.

Tara Brown: Basically, if you want to go to the area in question, I guess. The pictures that you’re seeing that Roger showed were from probably in January, when we had the awful flooding, okay? I’m sorry, but everything was flooded. Every road, every kind of low level area, it’s the worst record flood you have seen ever. It’s kind of hard to compare this to a heavy rain, first of all. I’m trying to get to the one, okay, this is the garden that we have here. This is what it looks like now.

Jason Schmitt: I did put a fence up around it.

Tara Brown: Yeah, we did put a fence up, and we’ve got chickens that come and go over. We’re not trying to get them to go over there, but we’re trying to get them to (Inaudible) over. This is a garden. We do have a fence around it to keep the actual deer and everything else out. We don’t have money for a good fence. I’m sorry, but, I mean, you can tell by the corn that’s grown that it is not that way. You can tell by looking where we widened it, the area is improved. You can tell by the property line where his “No Trespassing” signs are, how much it is improved. The area was actual dirt to begin with. There were horses there to begin with. It was not grass when we moved in. We do have chickens, it is zoned agricultural and we can have those.

Jason Schmitt: And, also, that waterway he’s talking about never ran to that main ditch. It ran in front of where they had their horses, and I just enclosed it and made it for chickens and that. It ran right in front of that building and then into the ditch. It never ran directly straight to the ditch, like how he’s saying it did.

Tara Brown: This is a new view of the property line right here, where ours is on the right, theirs is on the left. All we have is a fence up now. You can see how good it looks. I mean, it does not have mud, it is not near as bad as record year flooding. He has called the county on us again for the chickens, are they living in squalor? Dwayne Caldwell came out and said they were fine. I mean, we’ve had problems, he doesn’t like the way we are, we’re farmers and other things. I am so sorry. I really am, I’m very sorry. I’m not trying to do anything, but you don’t have to move out of your home because you just don’t like the chickens that we have. I’m very, very sorry. It’s just frustrating.

Jason Schmitt: He also did know I was doing that, because he come down and said that’s not gonna hold. He come down several different times when I was doing all this and he never complained about it. He just said I don’t think it’s going to hold for you. He never did complain about it until we had all the rain.

Tara Brown: We had a really bad year this year. I mean, the farmers are still trying to get over the record year flooding. Give it a year, look at it again, please. Give it six months. Give it some more time, please. He’s been farming, third generation farmer, putting tiles in, he somewhat knows what he’s doing. I mean, the tiles underneath the garden area should only help. If you can see he lives higher up, it flows down, we widened it, if you can see coming out there. We intend to even have it further. I don’t know if you can tell, but right under the trespassing sign we kind of dip it out on our property. This is a very, very silly and very frivolous, petty thing. I mean, you can tell there’s no water backed up.

President Tornatta: Alright. Any other evidence?

Tara Brown: Is that the only issue? Also, there’s no sediment trail coming down this driveway. If there was water that was coming down, you would see sediment trails. Yes, there has been dirt that was brought in. Not even a whole foot of dirt was there, and we cleaned that up around the side. There’s patches of dirt from where we had the trucks and the farm vehicles. We don’t have commercial vehicles, we have farm vehicles. It’s zoned agricultural. I’m very sorry, you know, it’s not a brand new John Deere.

President Tornatta: Alright. Anything else of the Board? Okay. Alright, yeah, if you just take a seat for a minute.

Bill Jeffers: Okay, I guess, just in my summation, I would say that, again, he did replace the undersized pipe with an 18 inch corrugated, plastic tile. I do think that’s adequate to drain the two, or two and a half acres that comes from off-site through the ditch that he is supposed to maintain, according to his plat. The natural surface watercourse that was previously obstructed by stone, railroad ties, and earth that was brought into the garden, he has removed the stone, he has removed the railroad ties from the watercourse. He has begun to restore the watercourse into what I asked him, or asked Tara to convey to him would be a grassy waterway through the garden, and eventually through the chicken coop joining with the tiled drain at the east end of his property. He had begun that. I’m a little bit disappointed that he erected the, what I’m calling (Inaudible. Tape flip.) because grass clippings and other debris can catch on that each time it rains and build up and form another obstruction. But, if he would raise that up in some way, so that water can pass underneath it for the entire width of the restored waterway, I don’t think that would be an obstruction.

President Tornatta: Mr. Jeffers? If he did that, wouldn’t there still be droppings in the waterway? Is that an issue?

Bill Jeffers: I believe if he restores the watercourse with a steady, downhill grade, as it used to have, and there’s only a few high spots left in it at this point in time, and where he trenched through the garden, I’m asking him to widen that out. I believe the issue of chicken droppings would only be the case if the water were impeded and then backed up onto the Huff’s property, carrying chicken droppings with it. Because, if there’s no way for it to back up, it’s all going to go forward into–

President Tornatta: Their property?

Bill Jeffers: –the Schmitt’s property.

President Tornatta: The Huff’s property.

Bill Jeffers: Not the Huff’s, no, the Huff’s, that’s uphill.

President Tornatta: Uphill?

Bill Jeffers: That’s been misrepresented. There’s plenty of grade. I’m talking about from the Huff’s home, from their house, at the top of the hill, down to Jason Schmitt’s property line, there’s over a 25 foot drop.

President Tornatta: Okay.

Bill Jeffers: In less than 400 feet.

President Tornatta: So, the droppings would go on the Schmitt property?

Bill Jeffers: Rapidly.

President Tornatta: Okay.

Bill Jeffers: In a hard rain, there’s no way it would back up, unless there’s the obstruction. I’m simply asking that Jason make some minor improvements to restore the waterway so that there’s no question of an obstruction. Now, as to the time limit that Tara alluded to. I did tell them that I was going to recommend to you, because of the progress that had been made, that you give him some more time to finish, and leave the case open for six months or a year, so we get into a rainy season, and I’ll report back to you at that time. I think he’s made an admirable progression. I want to keep this issue strictly focused on the obstruction of the watercourse.

President Tornatta: Uh-huh.

Bill Jeffers: The other violations that may or may not be present at the location can be handled by those departments–

President Tornatta: Right.

Bill Jeffers: –that are responsible for those violations. I’m not handling–

President Tornatta: Okay.

Bill Jeffers: –building permits, etcetera.

President Tornatta: About the standing water in the other areas, do you believe that will be cleared up with the remedies that you’ve requested he make?

Bill Jeffers: The standing water issue is only applicable to the tree farm area owned by the Huff’s.

President Tornatta: Okay, on their property?

Bill Jeffers: Yes, on Mr. Huff’s property. That’s the only area of standing water that is applicable to this petition.

President Tornatta: Okay, and by no way does that affect the Huff property?

Bill Jeffers: If the obstruction is adequately removed, the water should drain off the Huff’s property and there will be no standing water on the Huff’s property, thereby improving their drainage, which is the criteria for you ordering the removal of...if the removal of the obstruction will cause better drainage of Mr. Huff’s and Mrs. Huff’s property, then that’s the criteria that the statute prescribes for ordering the removal.

President Tornatta: Okay, any other questions of Mr. Jeffers? If not, we will hear from the Huff’s, and then we’ll–

Commissioner Korb: I’m just curious for the Schmitt’s, Jason is this land that you own? Or are you leasing it? Or is this family owned property?

Jason Schmitt: I just bought it not a year ago.

Commissioner Korb: Okay.

President Tornatta: Bought it a year ago, for those who can’t hear. Okay. I’m going to preface this by saying, as Mr. Jeffers said, we have to keep our comments for drainage issues and flow issues in this court, okay?

Christi Huff: And that’s understandable.

Roger Huff: Well, it’s like this, I think. We’re out of our house, excuse me, we’re out of our house because of this guy. I don’t particularly want to wait a year, just to sit and wait to see what happens. I think, Bill, any sane person could come out there and look at this and tell what’s gonna happen. I mean, you’re an expert. I mean, come on.

President Tornatta: Roger, you gotta address us.

Roger Huff: I mean, this is ridiculous. The water has nowhere to go. Any one of you folks could come out there and look at this situation and say, wow, I mean, it’s so obvious. You know, I don’t want the feces on my land, I don’t want the water on my land. I want to be able to sell my place and get away from this guy. I feel like something significant needs to happen here. I mean, if the Surveyor’s office can’t handle this, if they can’t make a determination, I mean, I can’t even imagine how many thousands of gallons of water come down that hill. To think that a trench that’s this wide is going to handle all of that. At the end of it, it has nowhere to go. There’s nowhere for it to go. It has no choice but to back up.

President Tornatta: Okay.

Roger Huff: It’s simple, really.

President Tornatta: And, what we’re going to, unfortunately, in your case, what we’re going to rely on is our Surveyor, because he’s been at this a long time, believe it or not. He’s seen a lot of these cases, and with all due respect, that is a guy that we rely heavily on because of his experience.

Roger Huff: Well, let me say this, I’ve lived there for 12 years.

President Tornatta: Right.

Roger Huff: And, before that my family has lived there for about 50. My family used to own that home. I used to play in that yard when I was a child, and I’ve seen how fast the water can come down through there. How it would fill that ditch up and run it out into the yard. That ditch no longer exists.

President Tornatta: Right.

Roger Huff: You know, I know what’s going to happen.

President Tornatta: It kind of sounds like, the way he’s moving, he would like to see that ditch back to how it was.

Roger Huff: Yeah, I would too.

President Tornatta: Okay. In that, if there’s a chicken coop that is restricting the drainage, or potentially could restrict the drainage, it be lifted up to a level that would allow the eventual flow of those waters.

Christi Huff: But, I think the ditch that, I think it’s a little confusing with how this story, how the picture is being drawn. Because the ditch that we’re talking about is right at that tree, that large tree that you see there in the front of that picture on the right.

President Tornatta: Uh-huh.

Christi Huff: Right there is where the drainage ditch used to be. So, that is all covered up, and that’s what we’re talking about where the water has no room to flow now.

President Tornatta: Right.

Christi Huff: Our property does not downgrade all the way into the property line. We do have a flat area that is shown on the pictures that is flooded, and it was not, those pictures were not taken when we had that record rainfall in February and March. Those were taken long after that. It’s not just that flat area that floods, but it’s right along the easement.

President Tornatta: Right.

Christi Huff: The easement where, you know, our slope starts to flatten out and starts, you know, getting closer to his property line, all of that remains flooded and muddy whenever it rains of any amount, because the water sets on that low area, because it has nowhere to go. Now, our vehicles are constantly covered with mud, and that whole ditch from where you see that truck, all the way to the road is filthy, completely filthy.

Roger Huff: And that’s a driveway. That’s a driveway that I spent 12 years, and I don’t know how many thousands of dollars building. This man in less than a week of having moved into that home turned it into a goat path. I mean, the mud runs out into the road, water boils up out of the pipes that are broken from constant traffic from his heavy tractors, tractor trailers coming and going. The Engineer’s office has yet to even respond to come out to look at that. You know, I have, when we try to get our kids, well, when we used to live there, on and off the bus, I mean, they get in the vehicles, they’ve got mud all over their shoes, I mean, you’ve got mud up into your windshield. I mean, this used to look like a county road.

Christi Huff: And, it’s not the farming that we have issues with, because when we tried to–

Roger Huff: Well, he’s got an acre.

Christi Huff: –discuss this with them, I said, we’ve got to get the drainage issues taken care of, because this is obviously flooding, and those were fruitless efforts, okay?

President Tornatta: Right.

Christi Huff: So, the civil way of dealing with it was out the door. So, that’s why now we’ve had to take it further. So, you know, farming, whatever they want to do, that’s not the issue. But, if, even if there is a trench dug through the chicken area or the garden area, then the other place it’s going to go to is in the middle of the driveway, which is what is already happening, because it simply has nowhere to go. So, in order for the large drainage ditch to be restored, all of that is going to have to be dug back up, all of that gravel where his truck sits, his truck is sitting, basically, on top of where the ditch used to be, or a little bit south of that. I have lived here also for, you know, ten plus years–

President Tornatta: Right.

Christi Huff: –so, I know what I’m talking about–

President Tornatta: Right.

Christi Huff: –okay?

President Tornatta: That’s fine.

Christi Huff: You know, where the building has been built over the drain. All of that would have to be removed in order for our property not to be polluted with whatever is on their farm, in order for us to have an attractive piece of property again so that we can sell it.

President Tornatta: Okay.

Christi Huff: That’s all.

President Tornatta: Okay, and what I think we’re going to come to, and I think Mr. Jeffers alluded to it, we’re going to need to see some drainage in action.

Christi Huff: Well, the pictures–

President Tornatta: Understand. Understand, and there’s been some remedies since those pictures, I believe. So, I’m not saying total, I’m saying that he’s going to have to go out there and evaluate what’s happening and what will happen in the future. If we close the case today and rule a certain way, would that be doing justice to either side? Maybe not, because it might be against you.

Christi Huff: Uh-huh.

President Tornatta: So, what I would recommend to this Board is that we take this under advisement, keep the case open, let Mr. Jeffers look at it, as we’ve done in other cases. What we found is that the remedies are blatant, once we’re able to see the drainage in action.

Christi Huff: Okay, well, whenever we do contact the county office, are we assured that some representative is going to come out there that day, and not days later, so, that the issues can be witnessed?

President Tornatta: Well, with the case open, Mr. Jeffers knows that that’s on his topic.

Roger Huff: I think what she’s trying to say is that when it rains hard–

President Tornatta: Yes.

Roger Huff: –that’s the time to look at it–

President Tornatta: Yeah.

Roger Huff: –not a week later.

Christi Huff: Right–

President Tornatta: Right.

Christi Huff: –because those are the answers that we are getting.

President Tornatta: We will address that, if that’s the Board’s wishes.

Christi Huff: Okay.

President Tornatta: Okay? Thank you.

Christi Huff: Thank you.

Bill Jeffers: Well, if that’s your, if what you’re indicating is what comes to be, I will say that I’ll go out there, with a survey crew, and I will stake grade from their property line, from the Huff’s property line, all the way down to the existing ditch. I’ll stake grade through the garden and the chicken coop and assure that adequate grade is laid out and available for Mr. Schmitt to achieve, and an adequate width of waterway is laid out and available for him to achieve to drain this two and a half acres that drains through that waterway. Because that’s what it amounts to, two and a half acres.

Commissioner Nix: Mr. Jeffers, one other thing, there’s been quite a bit of mention about mud, is, could you make some recommendations to, and I don’t know if this is seeding and strawing and that type of thing, or maybe some silt fences until some of this stuff is, this material is stabilized.

Bill Jeffers: Well, I’m going to have to say that the mud issues that were expressed in the last go round, the last five minutes or so, ten minutes, are not related to the obstruction issue. The mud is being dragged from out by the entrance of this lane to the county road. You can see it in the right hand, or the left hand picture there. You can see the county road in the distance, where the driveway terminates into the shadow of the trees, that’s the county road. That’s where, that’s the origin of the mud, not up here at the obstruction. The mud’s being dragged in from where the driveway meets the county road, and it’s being dragged up the way by the tire tracks. That is not an issue that’s involved with the obstruction or this hearing. That may be a sediment issue. That may be an unauthorized excavation on the part of Jason Schmitt out there in the right-of-way, it may be all kinds of problems, but it doesn’t have anything to do–

Commissioner Nix: Okay.

Bill Jeffers: –with the obstruction.

Commissioner Nix: Thank you.

Tara Brown: Can I say one more thing?

President Tornatta: Yes.

Tara Brown: If I could, when she said the ditch is exactly what she said, right there where the tree is, and if you can look where those pine trees are, it’s at least 50 feet away. Okay? That’s the area she’s complaining about. There was no ditch in the garden area ever to begin with. It was pure, just dirt.

Christi Huff: That is not what I have heard (Inaudible. Talking over each other.)

Roger Huff: I have photographs (Inaudible. Talking over each other.)

Tara Brown: I do too. Right here. Did you see those rocks? That’s where the ditch is. See the rocks, you can see them actually right there where it goes by, that is the ditch. You can even see the little thing over there. That is the ditch. There is the area.

President Tornatta: Okay.

Tara Brown: There is not any actual ditch through where the mud actually ever, ever was. Did it flow through there just because it was coming down? Yes. It did. You can see that. We tried to widen it, we did everything. You can see the actual size of the ditch when we first moved in by the rocks, how wide and how big it is. That’s before we put a pipe through there.

President Tornatta: Right.

Tara Brown: It’s just–

President Tornatta: Well, we’re not adding anything. So, let’s stop here.

Tara Brown: Okay.

President Tornatta: Okay? You’re not adding, let’s don’t take anything away.

Tara Brown: Gotcha.

President Tornatta: Let’s maybe get a recommendation from this Board, how to proceed, and go from there. Thank you.

Commissioner Korb: Well, obviously, we need to wait until, I hate to say it, but rains. But, in the meantime, Mr. Jeffers, I guess, my question, or my thing what we’re talking about, Commissioner Tornatta, is to go ahead and table this, I don’t want to say indefinitely, because that sure sucks all the wind out of the Huff’s sails, and can certainly understand why they would want to try to sell the property, and frustrated because they can’t, when realtors are saying no to them.

President Tornatta: But, they also have a pending case on this, and if there’s any injustice, then that would be remedied–

Commissioner Korb: Yep.

President Tornatta: –by this Board.

Commissioner Korb: Absolutely. So, I vote we pend this until we get another recommendation from Mr. Jeffers and his office. I think that’s the logical thing to do at this point in time.

President Tornatta: Do we need, Mr. Jeffers, do we need to put a timing, some type of timing on this for possibly the sale of their home?

Bill Jeffers: Well, I think the statute indicates that anytime you extend the meeting, you should give a positive, a definite date of when you’ll reconvene.

President Tornatta: Would you entertain a six month date?

Commissioner Nix: Well, I would think that we could–

Bill Jeffers: I think we can go a little bit quicker –

Commissioner Nix: –surely, something could be done quicker.

Bill Jeffers: – than that.

Commissioner Nix: Yeah.

President Tornatta: Okay.

Commissioner Nix: I would like to see–

Bill Jeffers: Sometime in September?

Commissioner Nix: Yeah.

Commissioner Korb: Is my thought.

Commissioner Nix: A late September meeting, and , hopefully, you’ll be able to make the improvements we’re talking about here and get this, you know, get this cleaned up.

President Tornatta: It would be September 16^th.

Commissioner Nix: That’s the last meeting in September?

President Tornatta: Yes.

Jason Schmitt: (Inaudible. Not at microphone.) Because that water never ran into that ditch anyway. (Inaudible).

President Tornatta: Okay.

Tara Brown: (Inaudible. Not at microphone.)

Bill Jeffers: No, I’m, the way I want to stake it for Mr. Schmitt will take it exactly where it ran before. I don’t want to change the watercourse. I want to restore it.

President Tornatta: And he will go over that with you.

Bill Jeffers: Right.

President Tornatta: Okay. Alright, if you want to–

Commissioner Korb: That’s great. We’ll just table this until September the 16^th, our meeting that we have, and Mr. Jeffers come back with your recommendations, and, hopefully, we will see some progress at that point in time.

Commissioner Nix: So moved.

Commissioner Korb: On Mr. Schmitt’s behalf.

President Tornatta: And, so ordered. Thank you all. Any other business?

President Tornatta: Any public comment? Any claims?

Bill Jeffers: No claims today. They will be in the next meeting.

President Tornatta: Mr. Jeffers, thank you very much.

Bill Jeffers: Thank you.

President Tornatta: Motion to adjourn, do we have one?

Commissioner Nix: So moved.

Commissioner Korb: Second.

President Tornatta: So ordered.

Commissioner Nix: Thank you, Bill.

(The meeting was adjourned at 6:55 p.m.)

Those in Attendance:

Troy Tornatta                            Bill Nix                                      Jeff Korb

Bill Jeffers                                 Ted C. Ziemer, Jr.          Madelyn Grayson

Roger Huff                                Christi Huff                                Jason Schmitt

Tara Brown                               Others Unidentified                   Members of Media

VANDERBURGH COUNTY

DRAINAGE BOARD

Troy Tornatta, President

Bill Nix, Vice President

Jeff Korb, Member

Recorded and transcribed by Madelyn Grayson.