VANDERBURGH COUNTY
BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS
SPACE ALLOCATION MEETING
September 22, 2003
The Vanderburgh County Board of Commissioners met in special session this 22nd day of September, 2003 at 5:04 p.m. in Room 307 of the Civic Center Complex with President David Mosby presiding.
President Mosby: Call to order Vanderburgh County Board of Commissioners, September 22, 2003. At this point I’ll turn it over to Mr. Rector and he can explain where he is at.
David Rector: I’ll give you a brief update. We have, we being myself and several different judges; Judge Trockman, and Judge Knight are here tonight too. I think Judge Niemeier has met with us, I believe these are all the judges that we’ve had.
Wayne Trockman: Judge Pigman was at one of the meetings.
David Rector: Pigman was in one, but, anyway the judges have been very good about showing up with us to meet with each of the Councilmen. We have met with all of them except Councilman Wortman. He called me today, and indicated that his feelings were that the money is not there, the funding is not there, really not a lot of sense in spending time to review it. That the space should be used as it is. Councilman Raben indicated that he acknowledges the need for the project. Like all of them, concerned about the funding. Asked us if we would look at one other possible scenario that we haven’t looked at, up to now with this. One being the County Clerk being, going to the juvenile....try it again, the County Clerk going to the Health Department area, the Law Library moving into the second floor break room area and some space out into the hallway, and then those areas being used for juvenile courts, and subsequently the following renovations taking place like we’d talked before. I can certainly look at that, if that’s the desire of the Commission. Whether it would fit, not fit, what it would cost in comparison to the others, I don’t know without looking at it. The square footage is not the same, but how that area might lay out, I just don’t know. I need some direction from you to see if you want us to look at it that way. In summary, we’ve talked, I guess, about cost, but if we would move ahead with the plan as we’ve all discussed, including furniture, security equipment, we’re looking at about 1.8 million for the Health Department renovation, Human Relations, that construction being juvenile courts, the subsequent construction renovation of old juvenile then for superior, and Judge Heldt’s office. The whole scenario, the domino effect when the old jail moves, everything comes to about 13 and half million. Using the current percentage that we have now in space allocation, 70/30 between county and city, that would be about 10 million for county and three and a half for the city. I think that will change some as we get into this, because the city is going to be taking some county space, based on your all’s approval. But that will give you a feel, kind of, for where we are now. Some major decisions that I think need to take place, and what I want to do to help you with that is I’m going to consult with bond counsel just to see what effect a bond would have, and how those payments would need to be made. so, you’ll have that information. Also what assistance the Building Authority can give from our funds in the renovation process. Also how much money will be coming back in when there is no longer any financial obligation at the end of 2005. In doing that too, trying to look at a different matrix from what I’ve given you in the past, more of a flow chart kind of thing with three independent construction schedules. I think we actually in this one being the first, the Health Department move. Second, if the money was there, the courthouse moves would take place next month. They are kind of independent. That space is available, and we could start moving over there. The last being when the jail goes to the new jail. By an overlay I’m going to try to show you how each of those run, and what they would cost, and what the timeline would be on that. So, hopefully, that will help you in your decisions. I hope to have that within the next two to three weeks. I think that pretty well updates you with what’s happened in the meetings. I would say each of the Councilmen were sensitive and empathetic to the needs, agreed to the need. Their quandary is like everyone’s, where is the money going to come from? How? They did indicate, I think, that they would try to find design money to keep us moving forward. They aren’t sure yet where that might come from, but they did understand to keep this on time that we need to move forward with design to keep the construction schedule met. The other decision that you all have to make, I think soon, is how, if Human Relations does go to the Old Courthouse, which Floyd has indicated he’s open to that, and the Mayor, but who and how and when would that be funded? Do the Commissioners want to do that, roll that into their lease costs over there? What is the lease cost that you are going to charge them? Do you want the city to do it? Then your lease costs are on top of that, or do you want the Building Authority to do that? So, that decision is going to need to be made very soon, because if they are going there, we need to start design of that space for them, to have them out of the area they are in on the first floor by the first of the year to coincide with the Health Department moving. So, that decision really needs to be made very soon, with your discussions with the Mayor, or with Human Relations, but we need to decide who, and where, and how that’s being paid for, and the design and the construction. I don’t know if the judges have anything to add from our meetings that I didn’t cover.
President Mosby: Any of the judges want to add anything?
Wayne Trockman: Wayne Trockman. There was one other question, and we kind of ended up talking at one end of the table while David was talking at another end of the table, but Councilman Tornatta did ask, and was interested in whether or not, and wanted to discuss further, whether or not the Old Courthouse space could be used for court proceedings. I explained to him what I thought were some of the obstacles to doing that. I’ve tried a case in the Old Courthouse, and I know that, Judge Knight, you have also. There are the same security issues there, and I did try to explain to Councilman Tornatta that we were...part of the plan was that the move of this other space to the Old Courthouse, but he had some interest in that also, and wanted to further those discussions.
President Mosby: Okay.
David Rector: Following up on that, Councilman Sutton also had suggested, or requested that the County Assessor area be vacated, they occupy the Health Department, and the courts then go on to the second floor. He doesn’t like the idea of courts being on the first floor, that being closed off, and all of that activity taking place on the first floor. Without looking at that, I think I can say that would be more expensive than what we’re really looking at now, because you are talking three moves instead of two moves with that.
Commissioner Fanello: Go back to, you said the suggestion was made to move the Clerk’s office–
David Rector: Yes.
Commissioner Fanello: –over to the Health Department. Can you go through that real quick, I think I missed some of it.
David Rector: Yes, Councilman Raben had asked us to look at moving the County Clerk’s office into the Health Department area. Then using the County Clerk’s existing space, along with moving the Law Library to the second floor break room, and foyer area, and using that space for the courts needs also. Square footage wise I know it’s not the same. How it would lay out, I’m not sure until we do that.
Commissioner Fanello: That’s what I was going to ask. Are they going to be getting the same amount of space that we would be giving them?
David Rector: No. Square footage (cell phone ringing), excuse me. I forgot to turn it off. The square footage is not the same. The Clerk’s office currently occupies about 6,000 square feet. The Law Library is about 2,100 square feet. We’re talking about Health Department along with Human Relations about 12,000 square feet. So, I know the space requirements are there, the space availability is not there.
Commissioner Fanello: Have you spoken with any of the judges about that option?
David Rector: Just briefly, Judge Trockman and I have talked, I don’t know, 4:00 this afternoon. I’ve not even talked with Judge Niemeier yet, and I don’t know if you got a chance to or not–
Wayne Trockman: No, I didn’t. (Inaudible. Not at mike.) Obviously, one of the concerns is that, I don’t think that, Marsha Abell has indicated consistently a concern about moving her office over there. We’ve seen the incident, the monthly incident reports that are filed by the Sheriff’s Department, the majority of the difficulties in that building actually occur in her office. I think that she would, she has indicated a reluctance to move her office into an area that does not have security.
Commissioner Crouch: I did speak to Clerk Abell, but it’s been about a month or so ago regarding that. I think it was during budget time that that issue came up, and she had indicated at that time, to me, that she was open to it. So, I don’t know if you’ve talked to her since, or if the conversation that you had was a long time ago.
Wayne Trockman: No, I....yes.
Commissioner Crouch: But, we did raise this issue at the last, maybe not the last space allocation meeting, but the one prior to that, and I believe it was Judge Heldt that said that the space was not workable for the Clerk, that they needed it for the courts. I would have to go back and refresh my memory as to what those reasons were, but I think we have explored that. Now, whether we can explore it some more, perhaps.
Commissioner Fanello: Well, I was going to say, just for arguments sake, just go and, you know, put together a list of pros and cons, and what you think the cost may be. I mean, we can’t really say no to the option unless we have all the information.
David Rector: I can lay it out on paper like you’ve seen the other drawings, and see...I’ll have to get with Marsha and see what needs would she have in there, and how would that fit in this Health Department area. I already know their needs, so I could use that and see how it would translate into occupying those spaces. What I don’t know, and I would have to talk with Judge Niemeier and Judge Heldt, because we are providing for both of them in this space, and who could occupy which spaces. So, we can do it, if you so desire. It’s just I’ll need to do some–
Commissioner Fanello: Off the top of my head it doesn’t seem like a viable solution because they are not getting as much space as they would be with the Health Department.
David Rector: That’s correct.
Commissioner Fanello: But, for arguments sake, I would like to see the pros and cons.
David Rector: Okay. I’ll do that.
Wayne Trockman: Well, at least one Councilman has asked–
President Mosby: Right.
Wayne Trockman: –for us to explore that option, and maybe that’s another good reason that we should do that.
President Mosby: I think, that’s what I told David.
Commissioner Crouch: I did speak to Councilman Winnecke. I called him after the last space allocation meeting, and then he called me back late today, and I’d asked if the, if it would be a possibility for the banks to do a loan for, commercial loan for a small amount. I think I quoted $2.5 million. He got back with me today and said that they would for that small of an amount. It would probably be cheaper than a bond issue. He said they recently did one for Gibson County, a tax anticipation note where they loaned them the money and then they paid it back through property taxes over a period of time. So, our most immediate need is the Health Department, and certainly there has been a willingness on the part of at least one local bank, and I’m sure others would be interested to pursue that. So, at least in terms of funding for that particular project, I think that’s something we could at least look at, and perhaps ask them for, you know, an amount that we need to be considering to do just that space.
Commissioner Fanello: Does the Indiana Bond Bank do that also?
David Rector: Excuse me?
Commissioner Fanello: Indiana Bond Bank, do they not do tax anticipation notes?
David Rector: I’m going to call and see what other opportunities there may be.
Commissioner Fanello: Okay, because I know they offer really, really low interest rates too.
David Rector: I’ll start laying this other option out immediately. Time is just becoming critical, if we’re going to be able to respond and start work in the Health Department area when they move. Or we’re going to have space sitting empty. The other thing is, just once again, we really need to resolve with the Mayor about Human Relations, how that move is going to take place.
Commissioner Fanello: If they don’t want to move to the Old Courthouse, I guess, there’s no place else in the building that they could occupy?
David Rector: No. Floyd has indicated that he is open to that. He had a little bit of concern about parking, but he is very willing to move. He’s ready to move. He just wants to know when we want him out of here.
Commissioner Fanello: Okay.
David Rector: He even said that he was looking at another place that might be an option for him too that has less renovation work needed. So, I don’t think that there is going to be a problem with him wanting to move. It’s just us getting it done.
Commissioner Fanello: Okay.
President Mosby: I might try to touch base with the Mayor and just see where we’re at.
Commissioner Crouch: Would it be possible while you’re looking at the bond bank perhaps for the Commissioners to maybe get some quotes from some of the local banks–
Commissioner Fanello: Sure. Yeah.
Commissioner Crouch: –to see if they’re interested in...at least to not stop progress on that particular space. Because, obviously, we need to do something with it. So, that might be something that we could consider doing, and I would make that in the form of a motion.
David Rector: Again, the design fund is what we really need to keep moving. We’re down to three months now before the end of the year. It takes some time to draw it, spec it, bid it, award it.
Commissioner Fanello: How close are we coming to signing the lease on the Health Department?
Kevin Winternheimer: I’m still shooting for next Monday.
Commissioner Fanello: Good.
Kevin Winternheimer: They are still trying to work out the terms of the inflationary increases.
Commissioner Fanello: Did you get my questions?
Kevin Winternheimer: Yeah.
Commissioner Fanello: Okay.
Kevin Winternheimer: Sam wasn’t in today, but we’ve got a possible resolution.
Commissioner Fanello: So, what do you need for design money?
David Rector: If we continue as we’ve all discussed without any changes, $90,000.
Commissioner Fanello: $90,000.
Commissioner Crouch: Had you not at the last meeting indicated that the Building Authority might have that monies available to them?
David Rector: If I know it’s coming to pay us back, we can commit that and start immediately. I just need to know that it’s going to be returned to us.
Commissioner Crouch: The Personnel and Finance meeting is Wednesday?
Commissioner Fanello: Wednesday.
Commissioner Crouch: Are you planning on attending, President Mosby? I don’t know if we have anything for–
Commissioner Fanello: We don’t really have anything on there.
President Mosby: I was going to say, if we don’t have anything up, I probably won’t.
Commissioner Crouch: Is, you know, would there be any benefit to us attending? Or one of us attending, and asking if they would at least give a kind of an indication that, you know, that they would be willing to move forward and address this space. Because we’ve got to do something with it. I hate to try to do the, from my personal opinion, to try to come up with a plan for everything might sacrifice our more immediate need, which is this space that we’ve been talking about for a long time. So, I would almost rather see us move forward on that space and go ahead and get that moving along, and then continue to look at our other options.
Commissioner Fanello: And I don’t have a problem of doing that as long as we continue to plan for the moving of the jail. Because we’re opening bids for the jail tomorrow, so.
David Rector: And to comment on that, I feel much more comfortable about that $1.8 million estimate than I do the 13 and a half, because I’ve only used budgetary figures on square footages. We haven’t laid out the areas, how many walls we’re going to need, what are the HVAC loads. We’ve actually laid out these areas, and done a better estimate on those. The others are a budget estimate, whether it’s plus or minus 10%, 20%, I’m not sure at this point.
Commissioner Fanello: Well, I think that Commissioner Mosby could just maybe make some phone calls to the Finance Chair, and–
President Mosby: I can do that. I can call.
Commissioner Fanello: I don’t know that anything would really be accomplished by going to the meeting. We haven’t let them know that we would like to be on the agenda. So, maybe you could just–
President Mosby: Well, I’ll call Councilman Winnecke and tell him what our concerns are, and see if he thinks it’s beneficial for somebody to come to the meeting. If not, maybe he can bring it up.
Commissioner Crouch: I don’t believe he will be at the meeting. I think he is leaving town, so, I think he will probably be available prior to the meeting.
Commissioner Fanello: Well, you could give him a call, and see what his thoughts are.
Commissioner Crouch: Maybe tomorrow.
President Mosby: He could talk to the President.
Commissioner Fanello: Talk to Councilman Raben.
David Rector: Councilman Hoy today had thought perhaps that they could come up with that money from CCD. We checked with Sandie and she indicated that all of the CCD money is now encumbered throughout the rest of the year.
Commissioner Fanello: Well, CCD is actually the Commissioners fund, but–
David Rector: They were, I guess, volunteering–
Commissioner Fanello: – I guess, they were volunteering our money for us, but there may be other sources I would take it from besides CCD.
David Rector: You might answer that. Is it all encumbered?
Commissioner Fanello: No, it’s not all encumbered. I mean, for what line items that are appropriated, yes, those are encumbered. But there is an unappropriated balance. In fact, there’s a healthy unappropriated balance. But, I might look at other sources besides CCD, so.
Commissioner Crouch: Well, and if we’re looking at a short term loan or note, that cost, if it was initially set out by the Building Authority or put up by the Building Authority, that could be rolled into that actual note, that cost, I would presume.
David Rector: Sure.
Commissioner Crouch: That you would get your money back. I would like to see us make a decision on that particular space, and moving forward with some–
Commissioner Fanello: Well, I would too, because, I mean, as long as we’re going to be signing a lease here in the next week or so, I think we need to make that decision.
Commissioner Crouch: I would like to go ahead and make a motion that we get some quotes, not only, if you can do the Indiana Bond Bank, as you had indicated, perhaps we could, in the office, get some quotes from some local banks, and maybe some different terms and payments. Then we would actually have something to present to the Councilmembers that they could look at working that into some kind of a schedule.
David Rector: Would you like us to do that? Or are you going to do that?
Commissioner Crouch: On the bond bank? You had indicated–
David Rector: On the bond bank, but on the loans from the–
Commissioner Crouch: Yes, certainly you can go ahead.
Commissioner Fanello: Right.
David Rector: We can certainly make phone calls. Then I can come back with figures.
Commissioner Crouch: I’ll amend my motion to direct you to do that.
President Mosby: Include the Building Authority Director.
Commissioner Crouch: And if we could do that, what, within a couple of weeks?
Commissioner Fanello: I think we should go ahead and set another meeting for two weeks from now, which is?
President Mosby: I’m not sure yet that we’re going to have a meeting that night.
Commissioner Fanello: Well, no, if it’s the first Monday in October we won’t have a meeting.
President Mosby: I don’t know for sure, yeah, are you going to be going to the AIC?
Commissioner Crouch: No, but, I mean, maybe we could have a meeting right before that. The week before that. We don’t have to necessarily have to have it on a Monday.
Commissioner Fanello: It doesn’t have to be on a Monday.
President Mosby: I was going to say, September 29th, I was going to say is the next meeting, and then October.
Commissioner Fanello: Maybe we could do it Thursday or Friday.
President Mosby: We’ll let you know. If we’re not going to have a meeting that first Monday of October, then we’ll let you know and we’ll set something different.
Commissioner Fanello: We could have a Thursday or Friday morning meeting.
Commissioner Crouch: Because I would like to see us, at least for the courts sake, go ahead and make a decision–
David Rector: Right.
Commissioner Crouch: –within the next few weeks, and start moving this forward.
David Rector: I think if we do it after the AIC–
Commissioner Fanello: I need to second your motion.
David Rector: –I would have the drawings laid out for you and the loan information. I think I could probably give everything to you at that point.
Commissioner Crouch: Well, if we don’t have a meeting that Monday, perhaps that Wednesday or Thursday following. Or Thursday or Friday, I don’t even know when that meeting is.
Commissioner Fanello: I would say the Thursday or Friday before that, October 2nd or 3rd. We could do a morning meeting.
President Mosby: Let me let you know, because if we don’t–
Commissioner Fanello: But, I’ll second your motion.
President Mosby: –I might not go to AIC, so I might be here. Okay. I have a motion and a second to have the Building Authority Director start getting interest quotes from the three banks, and, if possible, Indiana Bond Bank.
David Rector: Okay.
President Mosby: Then we will set another meeting for approximately two weeks from today.
David Rector: Okay, very good. Thank you.
President Mosby: Thank you very much, judges. Appreciate it. Thank you, David. At this time we are going to go into Executive Session, so we’ll have to clear the room.
(The meeting was adjourned at 5:23 p.m.)
Those in Attendance:
David W. Mosby Catherine Fanello Suzanne M. Crouch
Bill Fluty Kevin Winternheimer Madelyn Grayson
David Rector Wayne Trockman Others Unidentified
Members of Media
VANDERBURGH COUNTY
BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS
David W. Mosby, President
Catherine Fanello, Vice President
Suzanne M. Crouch, Member
Recorded and transcribed by Madelyn Grayson.