President Jerrel: I'm going ahead with the formalities. Commissioner Tuley is here and he is doing an interview so we can start and be ready to move so that...I know it is uncomfortable for everybody, but City Council has their own chambers and this is what we have. I'm going to call the Board of Commissioners to order and I'm going to introduce the people before you. On my far right is Tony Greubel. Tony is the Superintendent of County Buildings. Next to him is Joe Harrison, Jr. and he is the County Attorney. This will be Commissioner Pat Tuley when he gets through. On my far left is the lady who has to take the verbatim minutes, Charlene Timmons. She gets to type them all up from Monday to Friday, so she hopes that we all say things, you know, concisely so she doesn't have a lot of typing. Next is Suzanne Crouch our County Auditor, Commissioner Richard Mourdock and my name is Bettye Lou Jerrel. I'm going to ask you to join me in the Pledge of Allegiance.
 

President Jerrel: The first item on the agenda is the approval of the minutes of the previous meeting.

Commissioner Mourdock: And I'll move approval of the minutes in our packet for the meeting of November 22, 1999.

President Jerrel: And I'll second and say so ordered.
 

President Jerrel: The next item on the agenda is the certification of our Executive Session.

Commissioner Mourdock: And I'll move approval of the summary minutes of tonight's Executive Session. The session began at 5:00 and ended at 5:30 and dealt solely with county personnel issues.

President Jerrel: And I'll second and say so ordered.
 

President Jerrel: The first action item on the agenda is the Purchasing Department. If you don't mind we'll let these people run through quickly so that they...this may not be their topic.

(Commissioner Tuley joins the meeting)

Jerry Bryan: Good evening. The first bid that I have is the bid tabulation for the printing of the tax bills. You have the summary in your packet. We recommend Standard Register as the other bidder, Reynolds & Reynolds, was not responsive and their bid was not complete.

Commissioner Mourdock: I'll move approval of the award VC2000-01 for tax bills and note that the comments made by Mr. Bryan regarding the compilation of the notes are included in our packet.

Commissioner Tuley: Second.

President Jerrel: So ordered.

Jerry Bryan: Thank you.

President Jerrel: Thank you.
 

President Jerrel: Okay, now we're ready for the Eickhoff/Koressel--

Commissioner Tuley: No, we have the first reading of an ordinance first.

President Jerrel: Oh, pardon me. I'm getting in a hurry. First reading of public ordinance amending Chapter 2.32.100.

Commissioner Mourdock: On first reading, Joe, do you want to talk about it? We have before us a first reading for a revision of Chapter 2.32.100, an ordinance regarding Weights & Measures. Is it necessary that we read this into the record, Joe? 

Joe Harrison, Jr.: The only thing I would add or read into the record would be the provision that is going to be amended and it's 2.32.100(F)3 - Commodity Regulations. Essentially it's all commodities when required to be bought or sold by weight must be bought or sold by net weight and all commodities required to be bought or sold by measure or count shall be accurate. That's what changed.

Commissioner Mourdock: Okay, and with that quote in the record I would move approval on first reading of the ordinance as proposed.

Commissioner Tuley: I will second.

President Jerrel: And I'll say so ordered.
 

President Jerrel: Okay, now we're ready for the Eickhoff/Koressel information session. I can't tell if John Stoll is here.

Commissioner Mourdock: He is here somewhere.

Commissioner Tuley: He is here somewhere.

President Jerrel: John, can you work your way out here? 

John Stoll: Okay, as a brief overview of the project the project was originally--

President Jerrel: May I ask a question?

John Stoll: Sure.

President Jerrel: Can you all hear John?

Response: No.

President Jerrel: Okay.

John Stoll: Okay, as the project was originally proposed it came up as part of the EUTS year 2000 recommended transportation plan. This was proposed back in 1979. This project will consist of the construction of 4.838 miles of new road between the Lloyd Expressway and Diamond Avenue. The road will be constructed on an entirely new alignment rather than along existing roads. This is done to minimize the acquisition of houses that are currently located along existing roads such as Eickhoff Road and Koressel Road. This road will have four 12 foot travel lanes with ten foot shoulders. The median on the road will be 60 feet. There will be a partial control of access on this road which means that where possible we'll buy the rights of access on the road to prevent driveways from being located along the road, along the entire length of the road. There will be some locations where large parcels of land will have an access, but for the most part we'll buy the rights of access as much as we can. The road is going to have a 60 mile an hour design speed and a posted speed limit of 55 miles an hour. The construction of the road between Lloyd and Diamond will require the acquisition of approximately 179 acres of right-of-way. This information was originally submitted as part of the design hearing information packet that was passed out at the original public hearing back in December of 1993. Since that time no changes in the alignment have been made. This is basically the same project that was shown at the public hearing back in 1993. As a result of that public hearing the...as a result of addressing the questions and comments that came up as part of that public hearing the Indiana Department of Transportation satisfied...we satisfied the INDOT requirements for public hearing on the project, so as a result of that INDOT granted design approval on this project in November of 1996. Since that time we have pursued the right-of-way. We've gotten the legal descriptions drawn up for the first two miles of the road. As it stands now we have not started any right-of-way acquisition on the project, but that would be the next step. In conjunction with the project we'll have at grade intersections at Hogue Road, Upper Mount Vernon Road, Marx Road, New Harmony Road and Diamond Avenue. Each of those roads will have a stop controlled intersection. Other than that, that is a brief summary of the project. I don't know if the next thing you want to do was address the 11 questions that were submitted.

President Jerrel: Yes, I think...isn't that what--

Commissioner Mourdock: I just have one question.

John Stoll: Sure.

Commissioner Mourdock: Just so everyone can visualize what we're looking at by basic design is it accurate to say the new Lynch Road is pretty close to this as far as the access to it? 

John Stoll: Right. The access to it will be similar. We will have a few more access points on Eickhoff/Koressel than we would on Lynch simply because of the large parcels of land. We can't go out and buy the entire 40 acre tract of land or something like that, but as far as the overall design goes it will be a comparable road design other than the fact that it will have a substantially wider median.

Commissioner Mourdock: Okay.

President Jerrel: We did ask that we could have people here to address questions and Susan Wolf sent us a list of questions so we were just going to start if that is okay with everybody. We'll go down the questions and have a response to them. 

Commissioner Mourdock: We'll need to read the questions in the record.

President Jerrel: Okay, yes.

Commissioner Mourdock: Do you want me to do that?

President Jerrel: Yeah, that's fine.

Commissioner Mourdock: Okay, the first question then submitted was:

Commissioner Mourdock: And I suspect someone is thinking this question so I'll ask it. What does the traffic count have to be to have the warrant that you're talking about for the stop light?

John Stoll: It's based on hourly volumes so there is a number of different warrants that could be met. One of them involves 900 vehicles per hour on the main line and 100 vehicles per hour on the side street. Another one, I believe, is 400 to 500 vehicles per hour on the main road and 200 per hour on the side streets. So the warrants can vary. I mean, you can't really just decide and say 20,000 cars meets a traffic signal or something like that. It depends on the hourly traffic volumes.

Commissioner Mourdock: Okay. The second question we had submitted starts with a statement here:

Commissioner Mourdock: Okay. The third question actually has two parts:

John Stoll: Rose can probably address that better.

Commissioner Mourdock: This is Rose Zigenfus who heads up the Evansville Urban Transportation Study.

Rose Zigenfus: Good evening. The most recent traffic study that was done is the design summary...final design summary report and that was dated September, 1996. The traffic volumes that were used for the projections for this particular project, the first section between 62 and Upper Mount Vernon Road is 17,740 vehicles per day. The section between Upper Mount Vernon and State Road 66 is 11,200. Those are the most recent and the volumes that were used throughout the project design planning.

Commissioner Mourdock: Okay, let me clarify something. You said the design summary of `96 is the one that is most recent.

Rose Zigenfus: Yes.

Commissioner Mourdock: And the original design, since there was design work prior to that, was when?

Rose Zigenfus: 1993. 

Commissioner Mourdock: In `93.

Rose Zigenfus: They used the same numbers throughout. I'm using the most recent document as a basis for the numbers.

John Stoll: And that is the document that was submitted in order to get final design approval.

Rose Zigenfus: Final design.

Commissioner Mourdock: To INDOT?

John Stoll: Right.

Rose Zigenfus: Right.

Commissioner Mourdock: Okay. The fourth question:

Commissioner Mourdock: Yes.

Sherrianne Standley: Hi, I'm Sherrianne Standley, Vice President for Advancement at USI. I did bring a copy of our most recent master plan update that shows what we propose to do with our campus roadway system and I would be happy to leave a copy of this with you, but what we plan to do basically is to shut off the boulevard at about Clark Lane and force all of the traffic either to the right or to the left.

Commissioner Mourdock: And where is Clark Lane on your map?

Sherrianne Standley: It's right after you cross the overpass. It would be right here.

Commissioner Mourdock: Okay.

Sherrianne Standley: Clark Lane is the first road...after you come over the overpass Clark Lane would be the first road on the university property to the left and to the right. We would have to eliminate some of the first parking lot in order to make this roadway construction possible. Basically, what we're trying to do is to move the vehicular traffic to the back areas of the campus so that the pedestrians have safer transit up closer to the buildings and this plan was approved by our Board of Trustees within the last two years. In `97, Cindy says. I would point out that we don't have the funding for this transportation improvement at this point so I cannot give you a time line. We will be going to the legislature to see if we can get some assistance with how we would pay for this improvement. 

President Jerrel: You want to do the next since Sherrianne is up there?

Commissioner Mourdock: Okay, before I ask that question though, given what you just said of the funding I presume, and tell me if this is not what the thinking is, you're going to wait to go for that funding until you see what happens on the other end? In other words, what the county does, is that accurate?

Sherrianne Standley: No. This will be done regardless of what happens with Eickhoff and Koressel.

Commissioner Mourdock: Okay. Next question:

Unidentified: Can I ask a question, please?

President Jerrel: Sure. You want to--

Unidentified: What was the headcount in `96?

President Jerrel: You want to come over?

Commissioner Mourdock: Yeah.

President Jerrel: We need to get--

Sherrianne Standley: In 1990...do you need his name?

President Jerrel: Well, yeah, because we like to keep--

Unidentified: My question is what was the headcount in 1996 when the study was done?

Commissioner Mourdock: State your name and address please, sir.

Paul Vandendorpe: Paul Vandendorpe, 8425 Hogue Road.

Sherrianne Standley: In 1996 the headcount was 7,763. 

Paul Vandendorpe: Okay, and in 1993 when your study was originally done what was the headcount?

Sherrianne Standley: Seven thousand five hundred and fifty-one.

Paul Vandendorpe: So we've had an increase of over a third since then of traffic coming into the college since the study was done.

Sherrianne Standley: That's not quite a third. It's from 7,551 to 8,695. Is that a third?

Paul Vandendorpe: I'm sorry, I was wrong. 

President Jerrel: About 1,100.

Paul Vandendorpe: Eleven hundred people.

President Jerrel: Yeah.

Paul Vandendorpe: Eleven hundred vehicles.

Commissioner Tuley: Not necessarily.

Sherrianne Standley: Not necessarily vehicles.

Commissioner Tuley: With all the housing.

Paul Vandendorpe: Not necessarily.

Sherrianne Standley: Because you need to know that our enrollment patterns have shifted. Cindy and I were talking about this earlier. Our enrollment used to be over 50 percent from Vanderburgh County. It is now 34 percent from Vanderburgh County, so a lot of our students are coming from out of the county and from all of Indiana's 92 counties now.

Paul Vandendorpe: But they still drive.

Sherrianne Standley: Not all of them drive, no. We have METS bus service and a shuttle service on campus that takes care of a lot of the transportation.

Paul Vandendorpe: That's my question, thank you.

Commissioner Mourdock: What percentage, if I may ask, of the students live on campus?

Sherrianne Standley: We have 2,500 students now in campus housing.

Unidentified: Thirty percent.

Sherrianne Standley: Thirty percent of our student population.

Commissioner Mourdock: Has that ratio...that has probably changed over the years as you've gotten new dorms?

Sherrianne Standley: Oh, yes, absolutely. We've become much more residential then we used to be. We are now the second most residential campus among the public institutions in Indiana. Second only to Purdue/West Lafayette in the proportion of students who live in campus housing.

Commissioner Tuley: May I ask a question to follow that up then too? With projected enrollment my assumption is, and I'm sorry you may have covered this while I was out in the hallway, but I assume there will be projections for more housing and have you got any figures on that and what the hope for the growth is for housing? What I am saying is your population goes up given the fact that most of your count...you're getting a lesser amount of residents from Vanderburgh County there and more from all over I assume you're going to have more houses as well?

Sherrianne Standley: This is Cindy Brinker. She is Associate Vice President for Business Affairs. 

Cindy Brinker: Thank you. We have projected to open one new...we have one building under construction right now that will house 180 residents that will open in the fall of 1999...excuse me, 2000. We have another resident hall that will house 228 students that we project will open in the fall of 2001 that is yet to receive approval. At that point we do have an agreement with the Commission for Higher Education for measured increases in our student housing that we put onto our campus based on the number of residents that we serve within our 13 county area...or 11 county area which is Region 13 in Southern Indiana.

Commissioner Tuley: Thank you.

President Jerrel: Let's see. While we've got you up here let's see if there are any other university questions.

Susan Wolf: Could I ask a question?

President Jerrel: Sure.

Susan Wolf: Pertinent to that. Susan Wolf, 8727 Upper Mount Vernon Road. With this question about the entrance to USI I don't know, I couldn't see the map. Where would the new...can you tell us where the new entrance would be when you close off the other? Where would...off the...would there be an entrance off of the highway onto the campus?

Sherrianne Standley: There is another proposed...I don't know that it is an entrance or an exit. John and I talked about this because there haven't been any drawings done on this plan.

Susan Wolf: Okay.

Sherrianne Standley: I mean, this is just from a consultant for the master plan and we haven't done any of the engineering work or anything on this, but it does show a circle, you see, that goes around the campus and there would be another entrance onto 62, but I don't know if it would be an entrance or an exit but it would be...I don't know if you remember where the little rest park used to be about halfway between McDowell Road and the overpass?

Susan Wolf: Right.

Sherrianne Standley: It would be right in there in that area right there.

Susan Wolf: Okay, so then how would they get across? Whichever way they came how would they get across?

Sherrianne Standley: There would not be a crossing.

Susan Wolf: Okay.

Sherrianne Standley: From our point of view there would not be.

Susan Wolf: It would only be an exit from the university.

Sherrianne Standley: Yeah, it would only be another way.

Susan Wolf: How would they enter the university from the highway?

Sherrianne Standley: I don't know that it would be an entrance. That hasn't been determined.

Susan Wolf: Do you see my question?

John Stoll: You would still enter at the interchange.

Susan Wolf: How do you get...you would enter through the interchange? The overpass?

John Stoll: Right.

Sherrianne Standley: Right, right.

Susan Wolf: Oh, okay. So that...the Eickhoff/Koressel would be a viable part of one way or the other into or out of the university at that point?

Sherrianne Standley: Yes.

Susan Wolf: Okay, I'm sorry. I didn't get that because I didn't see the picture.

Sherrianne Standley: I wasn't explaining it very well.

Susan Wolf: That's okay.

Sherrianne Standley: Pardon me.

Susan Wolf: Thank you.

President Jerrel: We have another...do you have a question, Shirley? You want to come up?

Shirley James: In your new...I'm Shirley James and I live at 6521 Middle Mount Vernon Road. My question is in your new master plan have you any plans to make entrances and exits to the university from another area like Broadway? That would help our Lloyd problem.

Sherrianne Standley: It is not a part of this master plan, but we have talked about the possibility of doing that someday, but I don't believe it is included in this master plan. We have recreational fields right now that are off of Broadway Avenue and we have had some discussion about putting in some sort of a roadway that would lead from the main campus to those recreational fields. If we did that it would be a natural kind of a progression to have another entrance on Broadway.

President Jerrel: Do you all mind staying in case after we go through these questions that people would like to ask other questions of you?

Sherrianne Standley: No, I'd be happy to do so.

President Jerrel: We appreciate it. Rose, don't go away.

Rose Zigenfus: No.

President Jerrel: Okay, you want to go ahead?

Commissioner Mourdock: The first part of question five was what are the present and project enrollments for USI. We just heard those. The second part is:

President Jerrel: Go ahead.

Commissioner Mourdock: Okay.

Unidentified: Could I ask a question? 

President Jerrel: Sure.

Commissioner Mourdock: Sure.

Unidentified: How many people...how many families--

Commissioner Mourdock: You need to--

Unidentified: --are going to be displaced by the widening of Eickhoff Road and Koressel Road?

Commissioner Mourdock: Excuse me, ma'am. One of our rules of thumb here...scratch that. One of our ironclad rules anyone who speaks, because Charlene has to do all the notes verbatim, we need everyone's name and address and the only way with our sound system that works is if you come to the microphone and state your name and address, please, so please do that. 

Unidentified: I'd be happy to. 

Commissioner Mourdock: That way the people in the hall have at least a chance of hearing you.

Mary Ellen Tavenner: My name is Mary Ellen Tavenner and I live at 350 South Eickhoff Road very near the intersection of Eickhoff and the exit from the university. So I wonder how many of us are going to be displaced by the proposed change?

President Jerrel: Would it be appropriate for the engineer to speak to that? Can you speak to that one?

Commissioner Mourdock: Thank you.

John Stoll: This information is from the design hearing...design hearing information packet that was present back in 1993. Since we've made no alignment changes since then this number would still be the same which the relocations would be five.

Commissioner Mourdock: And by five that is five occupied dwellings?

John Stoll: Correct.

Commissioner Mourdock: Okay, question number six:

Commissioner Mourdock: Okay. Question seven--

President Jerrel: Wait a minute. There is a--

Commissioner Mourdock: I'm sorry.

Rebecca Whitehouse: Hi, I'm Rebecca Whitehouse.

Commissioner Mourdock: You need to come to the microphone.

Rebecca Whitehouse: I live at 8811 Marx Road. My question is involving the five relocations. I don't know what criteria you have for relocations, but obviously nobody wants a highway that is 100 feet from their house. What are your criteria when you decide a relocation as opposed to not a relocation?

John Stoll: If the right-of-way take necessitates acquiring the house, basically the right-of-way lines go into the house to the extent that it is not usable. I mean, actually physically gets into the house. Not if it is within 100 feet of the house, that is not going to be acquired as a relocation. That will just be the property being acquired, so the right-of-way has to run through the house itself.

President Jerrel: I have to ask you a question. This is not defined as a highway, is that...that was the description.

John Stoll: It is a four lane divided roadway.

President Jerrel: Okay, well I just wanted to make sure we were all talking about the same thing.

John Stoll: It's not an interstate or anything like that.

President Jerrel: You want to go ahead?

Commissioner Mourdock: Where was I? I had the one on the railroad. Question seven that was submitted:

Commissioner Mourdock: Okay, so going back, when you first started, John, before I started reading the questions you used the phrase...oh, where it is. You said, at grade intersections there will be stop controlled intersections. So just so no one thinks that is a magic engineering word or something that's not saying for sure it's a stop light. It is simply saying there would be a stop sign. If at some point in the future there was sufficient traffic there would be a stop light, is that what that means?

John Stoll: Eickhoff/Koressel would be the thru street and the side roads, those being Hogue, New Harmony, Marx and Upper Mount Vernon, they would all stop. So Eickhoff would be the thru street on all of those except at Diamond Avenue where it ends at a T intersection. So at that location Eickhoff would stop.

Commissioner Mourdock: Okay, but the phrase stop controlled doesn't imply...shouldn't be interpreted to mean, oh, it's a stop light?

John Stoll: No, it is not.

Commissioner Mourdock: I just means it's--

John Stoll: A stop sign initially.

Commissioner Mourdock: Okay. Question eight:

Commissioner Mourdock: What would dictate the need for a public hearing?

John Stoll: It's ready for a public hearing any time. It has just been a situation where the focus has been on this section of road since we know it will get constructed sooner than the other.

Commissioner Mourdock: On phase one rather than phase two?

John Stoll: Correct.

Commissioner Mourdock: Again, phase two is defined as from State Road 66 to I-64?

John Stoll: Right.

Susan Wolf: Excuse me. Susan Wolf again. I got the information for that question from a newsletter from the West Side Improvement Association. I just want to clarify my source in case I misunderstood what this was about. It says here that Eickhoff/Koressel from 62 to 66 has received design approval and is currently in the right-of-way stage of project development. Right-of-way engineering is complete for the section between, we know that, 62 and Upper Mount Vernon. Revisions to the phase two 66 to I-64 location study have been made and the report has been resubmitted to INDOT for review. Do you know the origin of that? That's where I got that. Is that not true then?

Shirley James: From EUTS.

Unidentified: From the EUTS minutes.

Rose Zigenfus: From the EUTS report. Then we haven't heard anything if that was what was in--

President Jerrel: Rose, do you mind?

Commissioner Mourdock: Yeah.

Rose Zigenfus: That was from the EUTS report.

Commissioner Mourdock: That's a good question.

Susan Wolf: That is what made us wonder.

Rose Zigenfus: Monthly we do a project update and if that is the latest that was on that project that's where it is. We probably haven't received anything more from INDOT on that.

Commissioner Mourdock: I just want to clarify the issue here. John, is that any different than what you said a moment ago?

Rose Zigenfus: No.

John Stoll: There is still three alternatives, so nothing has been finalized as of yet.

Commissioner Tuley: Help me out. There are three...a plan has been submitted that includes three alternatives. The state has not come back and said this is the one we would like to do therefore we'll hold a public hearing?

John Stoll: There is a preferred alternative from those three, but no public hearing has been held to finalize which of those three would be done. The report does recommend three possible options, but nothing has been finalized.

Commissioner Mourdock: And that is three possible options for the phase two segment?

John Stoll: Right.

Commissioner Mourdock: Yes, come forward again.

Paul Vandendorpe: Paul Vandendorpe again, 8425 Hogue Road. On the phase two construction proposal has it been considered what it is going to do at the face of USI, the amount of traffic that is going to be dumped there from I-64? You're going to have a bottleneck of monumental proportion if that ever goes through. 

John Stoll: The traffic volume forecasts take that into consideration and the traffic volumes don't show that there is going to be a massive bottleneck. There would be traffic signals--

Unidentified: Come live with us.

John Stoll: No thanks. The traffic signals would be installed at the ramps--

Unidentified: At the Green River Road study.

John Stoll: The traffic signals would be installed at the ramp intersection with Eickhoff/Koressel if warranted. The projections, like Rose just mentioned, ranged 11,000 to 17,000 vehicles per day. If signals were installed at those two ramp intersections they would have more than adequate capacity to use that to work with signals as installed at those locations. For example, we've got 35,000 plus cars running on Green River Road at the ramp intersections and I don't know what the county is on Weinbach, but signals at interchange ramps are fairly common and we could double those numbers and still make it work.

Commissioner Mourdock: I want to clarify that. You said we would have the projections when phase two is completed would be the 11,000 to 13,000? Did I hear that correctly?

John Stoll: No. Is that the volumes? Do they include the--

Rose Zigenfus: That's for the entire project.

John Stoll: The entire corridor including going all the way from 62 up to I-64.

Commissioner Mourdock: So that includes phase two. So even if traffic were coming off I-64 coming south you're looking at, and again was it 11,000?

Rose Zigenfus: Seventeen down around the university area.

Commissioner Mourdock: Okay, 17,000 and by contrast, again just so everybody can picture what we're talking about here, how many do we have currently on what did you say, Green River?

John Stoll: Thirty-five thousand plus. 

Rose Zigenfus: Yes.

Commissioner Mourdock: So we're talking about half the traffic conceivably out there. 

John Stoll: And if modifications need to be made--

Mary Ellen Tavenner: Coming of I-64 and going where?

Commissioner Mourdock: Coming down Eickhoff/Koressel.

Mary Ellen Tavenner: God forbid.

John Stoll: If modifications need to be made such as additional left turn lanes there would be available space on those ramps where you could run a double left turn lane westbound to southbound into the university if that problem presented itself. There again, that is something that would have to be looked at if the traffic warranted it and we would have to work with INDOT on that since the maintenance of the interchange has been turned over to INDOT. 

Commissioner Mourdock: And since Lynch has been built has the new section of Lynch had any traffic studies?

Rose Zigenfus: Just traffic volumes.

Commissioner Mourdock: Yes.

Rose Zigenfus: We've taken counts, that's all.

Commissioner Mourdock: And what are those numbers, do you have any idea?

John Stoll: Aren't they 10,000 to 12,000?

Rose Zigenfus: Yeah, they range to between 10,000 to 12,000. We noticed today that since Lynch has been opened Morgan Avenue between 41 and Green River has decreased by 9,000 cars a day. Lynch has picked those up.

Commissioner Mourdock: Okay. 

President Jerrel: Yes, question.

Rebecca Whitehouse: Sorry, this is a brief question. Again, Rebecca Whitehouse, 8811 Marx Road. You had said that there were three alternatives and when I read through my packet I saw the build alternative, the Eickhoff/Koressel alternative and the no change or do nothing. Are those the three or are there others?

John Stoll: You're talking in this?

Rebecca Whitehouse: Uh-huh.

John Stoll: That is for the section between 62 and 66. The one where the three alternatives exist is between 66 and I-64, so the three alternatives are for a different phase of the project than that deals with.

Rebecca Whitehouse: So right now the preferred alternative here is C, alternate C? That's what is in here.

John Stoll: I'm not sure which was referred to in this. Whatever the preferred is, that's what it was designed as.

Rebecca Whitehouse: Okay, this one?

John Stoll: Yeah.

Rebecca Whitehouse: Yeah.

John Stoll: And it only--

Rebecca Whitehouse: So right now what you're going with is this plan that is in here?

John Stoll: Right, between...okay, this is Diamond Avenue. Yeah, this only deals with Diamond to Lloyd. The three alternatives in the other public hearing would deal with the section between Diamond and I-64 so it starts here and works northward, so this information doesn't really pertain to that northern segment, phase two of the project.

Rebecca Whitehouse: So right now we're talking one alternative?

John Stoll: Right.

Commissioner Mourdock: Okay, question number nine:

John Stoll: The University Parkway/Eickhoff/Koressel project was proposed originally back in 1979 and the design agreements for the project were signed in 1990, so all that occurred well before any alignments for I-69 were proposed or discussed in any way, shape or form, so as it is currently designed and planned I-69 has not been included as a part of the Eickhoff/Koressel project. If Eickhoff/Koressel was built...I mean, if I-69 was built in Posey County it really wouldn't be a duplication of the Eickhoff/Koressel project and the reason I say that is because the interstate would probably only serve...provide access through interchanges to very few local roads. Case in point would be I-164 out on the east side. The only local road it provides access to is Boonville-New Harmony. Roads like Millersburg, and Heckel, and Olmstead were all cut off or bridged over, so it's not going to be, I wouldn't think, a road that would serve local traffic primarily. It would be more for thru traffic whereas Eickhoff/Koressel is being designed to be a road that would serve local traffic by providing the intersections at Marx, New Harmony, Upper Mount Vernon and Hogue. So even though I-69 wasn't included as a part of the planning for Eickhoff if it does happen and it does happen on the west side it wouldn't necessarily be a duplication of the effort that we are putting into Eickhoff. 

Unidentified: I have a question.

Commissioner Mourdock: Sure, go ahead. Rose, do you have anything to add to that?

Rose Zigenfus: Not really. I think he covered it.

Andy Hubbard: My name is Andy Hubbard and I live at 646 Sunflower Circle which is in the Ashley Place Subdivision. Forgive me if you already addressed this, but I was deep in the hall and couldn't hear much of the proceedings. North of Hogue where is the proposed road going to travel with respect to the Jagoe subdivision right there?

John Stoll: It runs about...I believe it is 300 or 400 feet west of the Jagoe subdivision, so there won't be any right-of-way acquired for the new road off of that subdivision.

Andy Hubbard: Okay, thank you.

Commissioner Mourdock: Going back to the I-69 question, if that were the option, John, do you know off the top of your head what would the right-of-way requirement be for a interstate type highway? Just how wide are they? You said 60 feet is what we were looking at here, I think.

John Stoll: Right. 

Commissioner Mourdock: Roughly, any idea?

John Stoll: Off the top of my head, I don't know. I don't know if anybody from Bernardin Lochmueller is back here still.

President Jerrel: Yeah.

John Stoll: They might be able to answer a question like that.

President Jerrel: Charlene, do you want to see if...could you maybe see if Keith Lochmueller or Brian are back there?

John Stoll: Is Brian back there.

Charlene Timmons: Sure. Keith Lochmueller or Brian. They need you at the mike.

Commissioner Mourdock: Any guesstimate as to what the--

John Stoll: The question, Brian, was what the approximate right-of-way width would be needed for interstates.

Brian Litherland: Pardon me?

John Stoll: The question was about right-of-way widths for interstates, approximately how wide?

Commissioner Mourdock: Okay, and state your name if you would.

Brian Litherland: My name is Brian Litherland and I'm with the consulting firm that is designing this section of the highway. It's Bernardin Lochmueller & Associates. For interstate right-of-way?

Commissioner Mourdock: Yeah. I'll reask the question. It was my question. John had mentioned earlier that the current design for Eickhoff/Koressel is basically 60 feet wide through most of it and my question is if we instead did part of the interstate...if I-69 went on the west side how wide would you expect that swath to be? In other words, we've got 60 feet with what this discussion is. If we went interstate how wide would it be? 

Brian Litherland: The 60 foot that John is referring to would be the grass median that is in between the two roadways, the northbound and the southbound. The amount of right-of-way for this job roughly on an average to minimize right-of-way take we keep it tight and can move it in and out as we need and it's going to run on an average of 200 foot wide for this roadway.

Commissioner Mourdock: Okay.

Brian Litherland: An interstate facility at a minimum is 300 foot.

Commissioner Mourdock: Okay.

Brian Litherland: And it utilizes typically the same 60 and sometimes 80 foot medians, so it's--

Commissioner Mourdock: So two-thirds of what it would otherwise be.

Brian Litherland: It's similar, but we can go tighter with these jobs.

Commissioner Mourdock: Okay, thank you.

President Jerrel: Shirley. Could you wait just a minute in case there are some more?

Brian Litherland: Yeah. 

President Jerrel: Shirley.

Shirley James: I'm Shirley James, 6521 Middle Mount Vernon Road. This is a question for John. John, in the traffic counts you say that this is going to be a local road, right? Do you consider Mt. Vernon local because what I am thinking of is ConAgra has informed West Side Improvement that if they come in they'll put 1,500 trucks a day through Evansville on Highway 69. That combined with all the other industrial trucks I see those trucks as maybe using that road to get to Diamond and I-64. Were those included in the traffic count?

John Stoll: I would guess that those trucks specifically were not included since that is a new development since this project was originally initiated, but overall the project was estimated to have six percent trucks in that traffic volume that Rose mentioned earlier, so trucks were a consideration, but a single large user of trucks like that was probably not included. 

Paul Vandendorpe: One more question for you.

Commissioner Mourdock: Sure.

Paul Vandendorpe: Paul Vandendorpe again, 8425 Hogue. This is more as a comment. Since he has not considered that then Toyota also since it was not available at the time has not been considered in the amount of traffic increase especially from our partners from General Electric and all the other transplant companies that have come to the tri-state. That too will affect the area because automotive is a major supplier. Take a look of the amount of traffic that is now going into that Toyota facility and what the state has helped build to go into there. Some of that traffic is coming down Highway 62.

John Stoll: I was talking with Rose about the EUTS traffic model and one of the things that will be done will be a recalibration of her model. Once new data is gathered it is very possible that will show increases in traffic volumes on the proposed Eickhoff/Koressel project, but the way that the project is currently designed it is at the lower end...I shouldn't say lower end. The 12,000 traffic count would be poor operation for a two lane highway. It's on the upper end of what a two lane road could handle, but it is going to be good operation for a four lane road, so we have some surplus capacity in that road so in the event that the new social economic data forecasts translate into increased traffic volumes on that road there is additional capacity in the road that can be taken into consideration on these trucks that might be using the road and any other developments such as subdivisions adjacent to the road. 

Commissioner Mourdock: And Mr. Vandendorpe's question begs the following question which is if in fact there is that traffic that is originating out on the far west side going to Toyota how is it likely that they're going now?

John Stoll: I would guess Lloyd Expressway to 41. 

Commissioner Mourdock: But how do they get...yeah, they come up the Lloyd all the way to St. Joe probably. 

John Stoll: Right. 

Commissioner Mourdock: Possibly to 41 or St. Joe. 

John Stoll: I wouldn't think that too many of them would want to take roads like Highway 65 or any other of the winding roads that are out on the west side as it stands right now. So my best guess would be 41 and Lloyd. 

Commissioner Mourdock: Okay--

Commissioner Tuley: Another question, Richard.

Commissioner Mourdock: Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, Shirley.

Commissioner Tuley: You can't see her.

Shirley James: Again, Shirley James, 6521 Middle Mount Vernon Road. A few years ago West Side Improvement did a survey. Actually, we went out with a petition and got 3,000 signatures in regard to frontage roads on the shopping center areas. This was about, oh, I would say maybe seven years ago. Six or seven years ago. At that time we canvassed most of those signatures from the Wal-Mart area and it was an amazing sort of a thing to find out that a horrendous number of those people that we canvassed were from Illinois and coming in from Poseyville. I would envision that some of those people might use the Eickhoff/Koressel Road. So when I think of local I think of those surrounding communities and I think any traffic count that is conducted needs to include those sorts of things. I may not be knowledgeable in this area, but I know the west side and I do know that we do have heavy traffic out of Illinois, Poseyville and Mount Vernon.

Commissioner Mourdock: I don't think anyone is suggesting that the non local traffic is not being counted. Rose, correct me if I am wrong here. The question though that Mr. Vandendorpe raised as far as the new social economic things, that wasn't necessarily talking about local, that was just talking in fact more regionally is what I heard in that question.

Paul Vandendorpe: Correct, it was not included in the studies previously.

Commissioner Mourdock: Right, because those businesses didn't exist at the time. 

Paul Vandendorpe: So maybe the study needs to be redone at this point.

Commissioner Mourdock: Are you suggesting it be a wider road?

Paul Vandendorpe: I'm suggesting the fact that we look at I-69 possibly coming through.

Commissioner Mourdock: Okay.

Paul Vandendorpe: Putting this traffic down a mile or two miles down in Posey County and we will not have the problem at the intersections.

Commissioner Mourdock: Okay, question number ten:

Commissioner Mourdock: Question eleven:

John Stoll: That statement is correct. The county paid for all design, right-of-way and construction costs on that interchange. The design, right-of-way and construction costs were approximately $5 million and that money came from a bond issue that was done for that project plus the Tekoppel Avenue overpass over the CSX railroad tracks in Union Township. The reason the county pursued that project was to avoid putting another traffic signal on the Lloyd Expressway. The state was not going to fund the interchange, so it left it in the county's hands. If it was going to happen the county had to fund it. 

Susan Wolf: Excuse me. Susan Wolf. Was there a reason that they would not fund that? Was it the design of the interchange itself that they wouldn't fund it or that they just didn't think there was one needed there?

John Stoll: As far as I know they didn't feel the interchange was warranted, that the problems would have been corrected through a traffic signal at the cost of $100,000 to $150,000 as opposed to the $5 million.

Commissioner Tuley: John, I wasn't a Commissioner then, but I was County Treasurer at that time. What I recollect was that the state's proposal was to extend a left turn lane, maybe put in a stop light. The cost they had estimated for that was $250,000 so they gave that to the county since we decided...the county decided, I wasn't sitting here at that time, to build an overpass. So it was $250,000 for probably a stop light and extended left turn lane.

John Stoll: I wasn't here either when that was all going on.

Commissioner Tuley: Yeah, I know you weren't.

John Stoll: And I couldn't remember all the details, but I knew that they felt that a traffic signal would take care of the problem, so that is why they didn't fund it.

President Jerrel: We do have here the EUTS Director. We have John Stoll. We have Bernardin Lochmueller representatives and we have the university, so we would be happy to entertain any other questions other than these or anything that someone feels hasn't been addressed that one of these people...yes, sir.

Steve McCallister: Steve McCallister, 3133 Waterman Drive. I'm president of West Side Improvement this year. We originally looked at the design plans at the design hearings in 1993. We voiced our concern at that time not that the roadway should exist, but at the way that it was projected to be built. We specifically took issue with same grade intersections. We still take issue with same grade intersections. We think that if you're going to build it build it right and do it right the first time and that means putting in an urban type intersection such as you have at Boeke Road or Weinbach. Overpasses, not stop signs, not stop lights. A lot of school buses may be taking that road. A lot of big trucks will be using that road. Projected traffic counts notwithstanding, so that is my only comment. I would ask that you consider that. 

President Jerrel: Is there a comment?

John Stoll: I just want to say that the scope of this project was not building an interstate so that was not one of the alternatives that was ever evaluated, but if it was done we would be looking at substantial increases in cost and substantial increases in right-of-way. So there would be many more relocations and many more properties affected if a project like that was pursued.

Commissioner Tuley: John, an urban interchange like he was talking, do you have a rough idea of the cost?

John Stoll: When we did the USI interchange it was $5 million.

Commissioner Tuley: And that was in `89 or `90?

John Stoll: It was built in `93. 

Commissioner Tuley: The proposed one for Burkhardt Road is now...?

John Stoll: Ten plus I believe.

Commissioner Tuley: Ten plus. That's one. You're talking about four. 

John Stoll: That out at Burkhardt would probably be at a higher cost since they'll be looking at the six lane Lloyd Expressway and we're only looking at four lanes for the bridges that we would have, but still it would have a high price tag. 

President Jerrel: Someone else have a question? I hate to ask--

Unidentified: Yes.

President Jerrel: Yes, sir.

Ralph Mueller: Ralph Mueller, 7514 Huckleberry Lane. As one of the property owners where this highway is going through I just wonder how long can the county hold this project? From 1979 you have property that has doubled, tripled and quadrupled in price, but yet we cannot sell it because if we wanted to build houses along in that right-of-way I'm sure that the county would say no. I'm just wondering how long can the county hold this property without us being able to do anything like that with it? I'm sure the surveys went before 1979. I think they started this back in the 50's I believe.

Unidentified: In `57.

Ralph Mueller: In `57, or something like that. All I am saying is if you're going to do something I think it needs to be done. Not wait another ten, 15 or 20 years. This property just sits there all this time. You know, can't do anything with it.

President Jerrel: Mr. Mueller, just one comment and I think it is something you've made a very good point. I think there is a need for north/south movement of traffic in the west side. St. Joe is not conducive to this particularly on the west side area. Fulton, we're still trying to deal with that. Boonville-New Harmony has been brought up many times. It's a very winding, narrow road. But I agree with you and we've been trying to put the money aside rather than doing things that are not related to infrastructure we have tried to save this money so we could do just what you're saying. Pay for the right-of-way and move on at least with phase one and do something so that the money that has been invested isn't wasted and the homeowners aren't left dangling. You've made a very, very good point.

Ralph Mueller: Thank you.

President Jerrel: Is there anybody outside that has a question? 

Commissioner Mourdock: There is someone in the back row.

President Jerrel: Yes.

Commissioner Mourdock: Please come forward.

President Jerrel: Come forward.

Judy Carver: I'm Judy Carver at 420 S. Eickhoff. A very few of us got the map tonight of what we're here for. Since it is also very tiny the question that I have Eickhoff is going to be cut in half, is that correct?

John Stoll: Yes.

Judy Carver: Prior to West Terrace Drive down by the church?

John Stoll: Yes.

Judy Carver: Okay. For those of us that live on Eickhoff, I'm on the corner of Eickhoff and West Terrace Drive, and Eickhoff from there all the way to Hogue Road how are we going to get out? Are we going to go out through West Terrace Drive through the school? The second question, I mean, are we going to be able to get on this? Of course if we do we're going to have to cross two lanes of traffic. The second point of my question is if I had a child that was living down on Hogue Road and the far west side and I had to come up to a stop sign, cross four lanes to go on and continue on Hogue Road to get to West Terrace School or get off, get on this proposed road, get off at the university, go up Highway 62, turn on Schutte and back down to West Terrace Drive, is that the proposed route for the buses? 

John Stoll: I don't know that anybody has contacted the School Corporation regarding proposed bus routes so I couldn't say what that would be. In regard to the Eickhoff issue, yes, the road will be cut off near the church and to get access if you're on the north side of where that crosses...where the new road would cross existing Eickhoff to get on the new road you would have to go north on existing Eickhoff and then turn onto Hogue Road to get access to the new road. 

President Jerrel: Yes, sir. Start working your way up here. As soon as he asks his then you come on.

John Eickhoff: The name is John Eickhoff, 10540 Hogue Road. I guess this question would go to Rose here. Is there any kind of numbers on the roads going east and west like Upper Mount Vernon Road? What is your car count going east and west that is going to be crossing this with that stop sign?

Rose Zigenfus: Which? For which road?

John Eickhoff: Say Upper Mount Vernon Road or Hogue Road. Is this a `93 study or is this going to be--

Audience: All of them.

John Eickhoff: All of them. 

Rose Zigenfus: No, I didn't bring that data, but I can go and try to get it for you. They're local roads.

John Eickhoff: You're going to be shocked, I guarantee you.

Rose Zigenfus: They're what we consider low volume roads.

John Eickhoff: No way. I lived on this road for 30 years. Thirty years ago I could ride a bicycle. These people are scared to cross Upper Mount Vernon Road to get their mail now.

Rose Zigenfus: Do you think there is 10,000 or more?

John Eickhoff: I have no idea. I can't judge that, but I guarantee...like I said, when I was eight years old you could ride your bicycle on that road and not be scared. And now you want to cross it just to get your mail you better not blink. Plus, you've got people coming from the St. Philip area that head to work every morning and you're going to bring them down Upper Mount Vernon Road, come down Five Dollar Road and they're going to stop at a stop sign. You're going to have traffic backed up a quarter of a mile. You do not realize. None of you have ever been out there.

Rose Zigenfus: Oh, I've been out there. 

John Eickhoff: Talk to the neighbors that live there. This is what is going to happen and if you're going to let it happen take Eickhoff off of it because I don't want my last name on this mess. Get a traffic count of those roads.

Rose Zigenfus: Yeah, I will find that and get it to you.

Commissioner Mourdock: Just to clarify something, when Rose uses the term low volume that is not to infer that anyone thinks it's a gravel road with one car every other day. Low volume is simply an engineering term as compared to a high volume like the Lloyd Expressway. Okay, low does not mean a few vehicles. Yes, sir. Come forward please.

Bill Meisler: My name is Bill Meisler and I live at 3600 Koressel Road. As I understood this gentleman he said there is three routes that are proposed and they haven't picked anyone yet. What in the devil are we all doing here standing arguing about where the road is going when all three routes could be implemented--

Commissioner Mourdock: You didn't hear that correctly, Mr. Meisler, because that is kind of the question I asked as well. When he was talking about three proposed routes that was for the phase two section which is from State Road 66 up to 64. Only for that section.

Bill Meisler: So you're saying that this is definitely the way it would go?

Commissioner Mourdock: The plans that we're referring to for phase one, yes. It's not like there are alternatives there now. 

Bill Meisler: Well, there were three alternatives before coming off of the expressway.

Commissioner Mourdock: That may be true from sometime before I was on the board, I don't know. 

President Jerrel: Dave or Brian? 

John Stoll: I was going to say, since that time when there were three alternatives back when this project originally started the design as it is currently laid out is the one that was selected as the preferred alternative so that is why the design has proceeded on this project in the way that it has.

Bill Meisler: Thank you.

Commissioner Mourdock: Thank you, Mr. Meisler. 

President Jerrel: Yes, sir.

Ralph Mueller: Ralph Mueller again from 7514 Huckleberry Lane. One of the things that I think you really need to consider the amount of truck traffic on this road. I'm very not positive, but I am almost certain that there is going to start being from SIGECO about 200 trucks a day going to this AB Brown plant. With that in mind, I think that is why they built that new road along the railroad going back to SIGECO. I think that is something you definitely need to consider. I'm sure USI would love to have 200 coal trucks a day going right in front of their main entrance to their university.

Commissioner Mourdock: I made a note to myself here earlier based on--

Ralph Mueller: I'm sure that is something you can find out.

Commissioner Mourdock: As a matter of fact I probably can. I had made a note to have John and Rose contact both SIGECO for that question and also as Mr. Vandendorpe raised the question about Toyota because I am sure those folks, Toyota specifically, will be very happy to give us where their workforce comes from.

Ralph Mueller: Okay, thank you.

Shirley James: Shirley James again, 6521 Middle Mount Vernon Road. I hate to be coming up here so often but I have a long history of this road problem here. Anyway, I want to tell you something. Back in 1978 when they wanted a stop light at Red Bank the state told us that they had to prove the need before they put in an overpass. If we would allow the stop light, then they would put in the overpass. When we asked why don't you buy the land when it is $400 an acre then it wouldn't be so costly because the need is definitely going to be there. When the need was there they reneged on the overpass. Well, then in 1985 when we wanted to stop some of the cuts into the expressway on the south side of the highway and get frontage roads the state came down from Vincennes and the gentleman that was there, Mr. King, told us that we didn't know what we were talking about that the kind of traffic that we were anticipating would not be here until 2015. Well, it was here in 1996. So we were right on that point, too. When we asked for an overpass at Rosenberger because we were going to have a very high traffic problem there they refused the overpass and put a stop light saying that was the appropriate answer and it's one of the highest accident rates in the city. Now, you know I see, and I may be wrong on this, but I see if I-169 doesn't go through that that road is going to be our bypass around the city and a heavily trafficked one and I frankly think that, yes, finances have to be considered, but when is the state ever going to do the job right the first time? 

President Jerrel: I'm not going to make any more comments about that. That's enough said and I couldn't agree with you more. Wait, we have a gentleman--

Unidentified: Oh, I didn't see him. I'm sorry.

President Jerrel: Let him.

Unidentified: Thank you.

President Jerrel: Uh-huh.

Paul Doss: Paul Doss, 14501 State Road 65. Just given ideal conditions I wonder if someone could give me an idea of project time line or in a perfect world what is the projected time line for phase one and phase two?

Commissioner Mourdock: In terms other than State of Indiana time?

Paul Doss: In an ideal world.

John Stoll: I really couldn't give you a real specific time line simply because not knowing what funding will be available in any given year. This project is proposed to be funded with federal funds and before we can really get on a bid letting schedule we have to buy the right-of-way and just for the first two miles alone between Lloyd and Upper Mount Vernon it is estimated that it would take a year to acquire that right-of-way, so that would put us into 2001 bear minimum if funding was available and that is just for the first two miles. So if we start having to split it up into smaller segments it will be who knows how many years before the project could be completed all the way up to I-64.

President Jerrel: It makes sense to start the purchasing of the right-of-way for the comments that were made a little bit earlier. The proposal for completing the first 4.88 miles, is that the first phase?

John Stoll: Yes.

President Jerrel: Would be, I would guess depending upon how much the right-of-way costs us, that we would be lucky to get the first two or three miles purchased in the next two years. We've committed...Rose might want to add to this. We're going to go out for bid on the Lynch Road interchange to I-164 next year and we're also going to proceed with the widening of Burkhardt to get to that. Those were plans that we are ready to proceed. We have the funding in place. We do have money to begin the purchasing on Eickhoff/Koressel and since so much money has already been spent there we wanted to proceed and begin. 

Commissioner Mourdock: And, again, just to tie those two things together so everyone heard what was said, John made the point that this project would be done with federal funds and federal funds will not be allocated until the section that we're ready to work on has fully been acquired by the county.

President Jerrel: And what he is talking about when he says federal funds most of you have heard these terms and Steve does a good job in the newsletter of explaining, but we've had ISTEA, BESTEA, TEA21. The federal government uses a lot of acronyms to describe the gas money that we send to Washington, DC and they give back to the State of Indiana who then gives it to us. That's what we're talking about. The amount of money that we get back depends on the formula. It depends on our population base. Our MPO now does not include Posey County. It probably should. We've been pushing regionally to get the surrounding counties all in there. If you all would look at a map you would see that the Clarksville/New Albany area gets to count the Louisville traffic and they're a Level 1 area. The Indianapolis donut area is a Level 1. The northeastern section of Indiana is a Level 1 and the Ft. Wayne area is a Level 1. We...that means we have to have a population base of over 200,000 to get a higher funding level. Rose, you stop me if I am saying this wrong. If you do not have that level you fall into the second category and we are in that category. We have 183,000 in our MPO area and it takes 200,000 to get to the magic Level 1 and we fall in with Bloomington, Kokomo, Anderson, communities that size. We have a census that is coming this March and if everyone realized how important it is that they get counted and don't throw away that card that comes to you we're 17,000 from being a Level 1 and we are the third largest city in the state of Indiana. We all get uptight about this and all of us in this room are affected by it and we have to keep pushing all we can. But that is what determines the federal funds that come down. 

John Stoll: And we also have to deal with the fact that there are numerous projects proposed for the use of that federal aid funding once it is allocated to this area. Projects like the Fulton Avenue Bridge project; Fulton Avenue road project; Lynch Road; you name it. All these major road projects, so that comes into play as well as prioritizing which one gets built and when, so that makes it that much more difficult to assign a specific schedule to these constructions...to the construction of these projects. 

President Jerrel: I didn't mean to take that time to do that, but I did think it's very important to all of us. If someone else has some questions out in the hall.

Commissioner Tuley: There is a lady back over here.

President Jerrel: Yes, ma'am.

Cynthia Hoehn: Cynthia Hoehn, 2914 Koressel Road. In looking at this it looks like you're going to be diverting the traffic partially down Koressel Road whenever you start the project. Koressel Road, the traffic is so high there. I think a traffic count needs to be done on that road as well. I won't even let my children play out in the front yard it's so bad. Secondly, I would like to know exactly where...I'm between Upper Mount Vernon and Marx. I'm on the left-hand side of the road. I'm like right in the middle. Is the highway going to go behind my house?

John Stoll: Yes.

Cynthia Hoehn: So what is going to happen to Koressel Road? You keep saying Eickhoff/Koressel. Is that now going to be...am I going to be entering off of...okay.

John Stoll: Koressel Road as it currently exists will stay there. The name Eickhoff/Koressel comes from the fact that back when this project was originally proposed one of the alternatives was to just build a connector between the north end of Eickhoff and the south end of Koressel and make a two lane road that way. So once it was found that the road would need four lanes that alternative was discarded because of the fact that there would be too many impacts to existing residences along those two roads if you were trying to build a four lane road. So that is why it is called Eickhoff/Koressel. Once the new road is built Koressel will remain in its current condition. It's just it will be a two lane road with the new road being a four lane road west of existing Koressel.

Commissioner Mourdock: Probably for the sake of simplicity we ought to refer to this as...I think Rose referred to it at one point earlier this evening as University Parkway because that's really more what it is.

Cynthia Hoehn: How far off of the nearest property line on Koressel Road is the highway going to be? 

Unidentified: That varies.

John Stoll: I would have to get the plans because it--

Commissioner Mourdock: Let me rephrase the question in a way because I am sure there are a lot of people here who have specific questions as to their properties. Do we have, John, or can you make available at your office a map that these folks can look at, and I know you've got those, and secondly, why don't we also provide to the media and I know you don't have this at your fingertips, but at least a map showing where the layout is with the current plan?

John Stoll: I've got that back there on the plans. We've got aerial photos with the alignment of the road shown. It's spread across three or four different sheets of the plans, but it does exist so we can make copies for specific people if they want to know where the new road is going to be relative to their property.

Commissioner Mourdock: Right.

John Stoll: So that wouldn't be any problem.

Tim Mueller: I'm Tim Mueller of 4710 North County Line Road. I have a question for the ladies from USI. What days of the week is there more classes? Monday, Wednesday and Friday or Tuesday and Thursday? 

President Jerrel: It wouldn't be Friday.

Tim Mueller: When we were here last time John told us that he went out there and looked or he sat out there and it was on a Tuesday, but I hear there is more classes on Monday, Wednesday and Friday which causes more...he was on a Thursday? 

Sherrianne Standley: I don't know the answer to your question, but I suspect the classes are pretty equally divided between the days. I would say they are much lighter on Friday especially after the noon hour on Friday. It would be lighter and that's because a lot of labs take place in the afternoon on Mondays and Wednesdays and only meet twice a week, so it would be lighter on Friday afternoons. 

Tim Mueller: The other question I have is when you come up to the intersection coming off of 62 I hear that Barry Hart who is in charge of security at USI he says if a car stops up there it causes a backup on 62. Now, the people that live around there they ought to know more than I do, but I mean that is something that you've got to think about. I mean, this traffic coming in there is going to be unbelievable. 

Sherrianne Standley: Yeah. I use the overpass every day and I don't use it necessarily coming from 62. I'm one of those people who wants to get across when the line of traffic stops at the top of the lane. I rarely have to sit longer than two or three minutes in the morning just before 8:00, so I know you find it hard to believe that it manages itself, but it does manage itself pretty well and I don't think the accident rate is very high there. The inexperienced person who thinks they have to stop at the top of a ramp just because mostly that's what you have to do, those are the people who slow down and kind of look around and wonder what should I do next, but the people waiting in line usually motion them on and then they kind of get the drift. 

Tim Mueller: I guess it's a thing after they finally get used to it.

Sherrianne Standley: Yes.

Tim Mueller: But normally when you come to an exchange like that you stop at the top. 

Sherrianne Standley: Yeah.

Tim Mueller: The next thing I want to tell you all this really bothers my family because you're going right through the middle of my...Ralph, my brother and I, our family has been in farming over 100 years and it really makes it...I make my livelihood off of farming. It's really going to cut me bad. So, I mean, we got to have a break somewhere. Thank you. 

President Jerrel: Is there anybody else out there? 

Unidentified: Just from hearing all the questions and comments it sounds like there are a lot of concerns.

Commissioner Mourdock: State your name please.

David Griffith: My name is David Griffith. I'm an Evansville resident and I was wondering is there a way to possibly move this road down another half mile from USI east because I-69 is going to be a factor and it sounds as if that is going to accomplish a lot of the objectives that the Eickhoff/Koressel Road will do and it could very well become part of I-69 as the Eickhoff/Koressel freeway. It sounds like the federal funding will be there and it is going to affect us in the next ten years. It's right there and it is reality. It could very well provide four to five Evansville interchanges: Diamond Avenue, Lloyd Expressway.

President Jerrel: May I ask Rose to come up and explain where we are on that? I think it will help to answer some of your questions.

Rose Zigenfus: The I-69 project, I guess we're in the process of reviewing proposals and on December 10th there will be presentations to a committee to look at the feasibility and the methodology of conducting a study that will determine the locational river crossing issues associated with I-69 from I-64 south into Kentucky. That project is an important aspect of the transportation network. We don't think, and I say think because I don't know for sure, it will replace the Eickhoff/Koressel project. It won't be built in the location of the Eickhoff/Koressel project. It's not feasible to cross the river at that location so we think that the prospects of that happening are very slim to none. The I-69 corridor will come off of I-64 in some location east or west of Highway 41 and that's what the study is going to determine. We hope to have a consultant under contract sometime by early spring, January, February or March. INDOT is the lead agency on that project. It will be a 24 month project and at that time we should know exactly where I-69 is going to traverse the county if it is going to be in Vanderburgh or Posey County.

Commissioner Tuley: Or in the state of Indiana at all.

Rose Zigenfus: Or the state of Indiana at all, you're right.

President Jerrel: So it wouldn't be coming through there because the plan is to get to the river for a bridge.

Rose Zigenfus: That is correct.

President Jerrel: You know, it wouldn't be practical to go through the university or that area around there.

Rose Zigenfus: And as John said, too, Eickhoff/Koressel is to serve local traffic and the interstate is to serve thru traffic, so that's what--

David Griffith: One more point. I was just going to say I know that it couldn't run directly through the university, but if it was placed a half mile or a mile east of the university then the southern leg of I-69 could move on down toward the Ohio River and probably--

President Jerrel: I don't think you would see it going east of Eickhoff/Koressel.

David Griffith: You don't?

President Jerrel: No. I mean, I think you're--

Commissioner Mourdock: Did you mean to say east or did you mean to say west?

President Jerrel: Did you mean west?

David Griffith: I was saying east of USI between Boehne--

Audience: No, west.

David Griffith: Thank you.

President Jerrel: Yeah, it would be west. I don't think that would happen.

Commissioner Mourdock: One thing when you sit in this chair very long you find out everybody has got an opinion, so east, west, north, south. Everybody has got an opinion.

President Jerrel: Is there anyone else that would like...Susan.

Susan Wolf: I just want to be really quick. We all do appreciate all the research and the work that you've done in putting this meeting together. I just have really one thing that I can't help but saying near the end of this discussion. I think I can speak for many people when I say I'm not really against a loop around the city and that's not my focus here. That's not my intention or many other people, but whoever heard of a loop around some place ending with the terminus at a major university and that's my concern. Whoever thought about a loop around the city with stop signs at...not even four way stop signs, but stop signs with a 1993 traffic count applying this much later in an area of growth. Those are our concerns and that's what we really very much want you to look at as you look at this road and look at this design. 

President Jerrel: I think that point is excellent. There was never any intention that this be a loop. This is a north/south artery for this county to get from one part to another. You know, every year for those of you who have been following this know that Rose has suggested that we use Boonville-New Harmony and come around. There has been such an outcry to trying to do that because of the cost and the narrowness of the road and the winding aspect and this was the most logical...reading the minutes of those meetings, but it was never intended to be a highway or it was never intended to be a loop. It is a road that will...a very well designed four lane road that would get from the Lloyd hopefully to Diamond and beyond so that we could get traffic moving in our county. Yes, sir. 

Carl Griesbacher: Carl Griesbacher, 6100 Happe Road. My question is Vanderburgh County today has trouble maintaining the federal standards for ozone. Traffic lights are one of the greatest contributors to this. Now we're going to design a road with intersections that everyone knows would eventually have traffic lights, so what is the purpose? You know, we're whipping a dead horse.

Commissioner Mourdock: Yeah, that's a great question and since I'm the one on the panel who has been involved most with ozone let me take a shot at that one. If we...well, as John Stoll and Pat made the point earlier, if we went simply and expensively to urban type intersections right off the bat it would raise the cost of this project dramatically. Probably by about five times the way it sounds. The ozone issue is a very real issue. It is hard to understand at first grasp that putting in an additional stop light might help reduce ozone, but I would take you back to something Rose Zigenfus mentioned earlier this evening which is with the new project that we put in at Lynch Road which actually resulted in the second stop light in Vanderburgh County and, no, I didn't misspeak. That was the second stop light under the control of this board. All the rest of the stop lights are the city's fault.

Commissioner Tuley: Or the state.

Commissioner Mourdock: Or the state, but with the construction of Lynch Road we have actually taken some 9,000 vehicles off of more congested Morgan Avenue so even though there may be a few traffic lights out there on Lynch we have actually probably reduced emissions overall because we've taken them off Morgan. So you--

Commissioner Tuley: Which has more stop lights.

President Jerrel: Yes.

Commissioner Mourdock: Right, which has more stop lights. So your question is a very good one and the first time that someone raised that to me.

Carl Griesbacher: But everyone expects this traffic count to go higher than even the projections are so eventually there are going to be stop lights out there, too, all along the intersections. Another question I would like to ask they talk about a three and six degree slope on these grades, but what is the length of this grade because Hogue Road and Upper Mount Vernon Road all run along ridge lines, so why couldn't these go under these roads? 

Commissioner Mourdock: I'll leave that one to John. 

John Stoll: The length of the grades vary trying to match the terrain as best as possible without having even more fill than what currently is planned for this project, so the grades vary all along the whole project. I'm not sure what the steepest grade is. I don't think there is much. I think four to five percent is about as steep as it gets, but it does vary throughout the entire corridor. As far as going under the roads I'm not aware of anybody ever even evaluating that so I really couldn't comment on that. 

President Jerrel: Is there someone else that has a...any questions from Commissioners or anyone else?

Commissioner Mourdock: I would ask one question, John, and kind of follow up on Steve McCallister's point and several in the audience about the so-called urban intersections. If we took a look at that now do you have any estimate or could you get us an estimate as to what additional right-of-way might be necessary? My thinking is that if 20 years from now, and I know that seems like a long way off, but if 20 years from now the traffic count is so outrageous that such things are warranted fully at that time we could at least have the right-of-way in place.

John Stoll: I could get with Bernardin Lochmueller and we could take a look at that. I do know at some of the intersections there are some houses close to where Eickhoff does cross the existing road so it will increase the--

Commissioner Mourdock: Affect the cost.

Commissioner Tuley: The displacements, too.

John Stoll: And residential relocations, so that would be a factor as well, but we can take a look at that.

Commissioner Mourdock: Okay, I would raise that as an issue. I don't know what you guys think of that one. 

Commissioner Tuley: It's a valid...it's something to look at.

President Jerrel: I'll tell you an issue I would like to see looked at and it doesn't have anything to do with this. I would like to get all the traffic off 41, the truck traffic, onto I-164. That would help your ozone more than anything else.

Commissioner Mourdock: Yeah, right. Be it the east side now or the west side at some point in the future.

President Jerrel: Right, right. I don't want anybody to leave here and not get something if they have a question that needs to be answered.

John Stoll: One thing, too, Tony just made some more copies of that design hearing packet so anybody that needs one he's got more of them available.

President Jerrel: Sure. We have another question. I'm sorry. 

Joyce Waters: Joyce Waters. I live in the city, but I own property at Hogue and Eickhoff. Since we're one of the first that would be affected along there and it goes through the middle of the farm for my brother and I where do we go from here? This is an informational meeting, but where does it go from here? 

President Jerrel: Do you want to respond? Brian, do you--

John Stoll: The next step as far as the county would be concerned would be to sign an agreement to begin pursuing the right-of-way acquisition which would affect Ms. Waters' property because it is in the first two mils of the project. Beyond that it's...the construction would follow no sooner than a year after that given the fact that it would take a year to acquire the right-of-way, but the next step is in the county's hands as far as signing off on an agreement to begin right-of-way acquisition.

President Jerrel: Yes, sir.

Commissioner Tuley: John, back on your time table. We acquire the right-of-way, we have our 20 percent, then it is still up to the state to award that contract, correct?

John Stoll: Correct. We would enter into an agreement with the state. They would put it on a bid letting once we meet all of their criteria as far as right-of-way acquisition, design standards and everything like that.

Commissioner Tuley: But it kind of goes back also to what Betty was talking about, was it not, that we were competing with all those other cities for that money and they'll take into consideration all the federal projects we already have?

John Stoll: Right, and we also have the issue of other projects within the Evansville MPO area that would be competing for those same funds.

Commissioner Tuley: Which could be city or--

John Stoll: Right. I know the city is looking at widening St. Joe Avenue. I know Warrick County has looked at Telephone Road in the past. I don't know what the status of that project is.

Commissioner Tuley: So once we've done our part, acquired the right-of-way, had our 20 percent sitting on the side, then it is out of our hands until the state--

President Jerrel: Lets the contract.

Commissioner Tuley: --lets the contract on it?

John Stoll: Right.

President Jerrel: Now, the idea...you have to put this in the mix. Many counties do not plan far enough ahead to get their right-of-way purchases in and their design ready so sometimes if you have everything that you're responsible for doing there is money that the state has that they don't want to sit there and hear people talk about them having this funding built up and not used and they often will give a county additional--

Commissioner Tuley: Priority.

President Jerrel: If they have it ready.

Commissioner Tuley: Yeah.

John Stoll: The bad side of that like the Fulton Avenue project, those plans sat on a shelf up at the state for over a year waiting for funding, so when they have a glut of projects the opposite can hold true as well.

President Jerrel: Right.

John Stoll: Which there again makes it very tough to determine when these things would go to construction.

President Jerrel: That's right.

John Stoll: Okay, we all need to go on hold for a second. Charlene is going to change the tape from which she'll be typing the notes. 

Tape change

Commissioner Mourdock: Okay.

President Jerrel: Just one thing that would help, I think. We can communicate with certain people that can communicate with others or we can use the vehicle of the West Side newspaper on issues that deal with us proceeding and at what stage we are in terms of the money. I don't know what to say would be the best way to keep you informed. This has been a good session and I commend all of you. Everybody has asked good questions and Susan for sending these in so that we could do the research. I think that is healthy. I think that is what this is all about. John.

John Stoll: And if anybody has specific questions as far as how they will be affected they can give my office a call. The number is 435-5773 and we can make copies of the portions of the road design as far as how it is located within the vicinity of their property. The plans are also available for review up in the office at any time between 8:00 and 4:30.

Unidentified: Could you repeat the number?

Commissioner Mourdock: 435-5773. 

Brent Barnes: Brent Barnes, 8520 New Harmony Road. I was wondering if they had an accident figure up at the university before the overpass and after the overpass was installed? I can't see where you can't see that that's going to be a major problem. Four lanes of traffic at the entrance to USI that's no place for a road to be. A four lane, if you said it was a low volume, it's not going to be that high of a traffic count. Why are you putting four lanes in? You're just kind of contradicting. There is going to have to be a lot of traffic there.

Commissioner Mourdock: Rose, do you want to deal with it?

Rose Zigenfus: I don't have any accident data with me this evening, but I'll be glad to look it up and let you know what that is. 

President Jerrel: Do you want to give...did you give your address with your name for the record?

Brent Barnes: Yes.

President Jerrel: We can get the minutes.

Rose Zigenfus: How about a phone number?

Brent Barnes: 963-6928. 

Rose Zigenfus: 6928, thank you.

Commissioner Mourdock: Okay. 

Phil Hoy: My name is Phil Hoy and I live at 217 Cherry Street downtown. My late brother was very good a making a living making predictions and I don't pretend to have any of his powers, but what I see in the future on this road are traffic lights, fast food stores, everything that we see everywhere else in this county. I think we have a real opportunity here to do real planning. Obtain the right-of-way for those urban intersections now so that less than 20 years from now we will not be looking at what we're looking at at the Lloyd and Burkhardt. That is instead of $10 million $21 million. We'll be looking at that at every intersection out there. The population is going to grow. We've talked about truck traffic. I have a son-in-law whose firm is planning the third part of their subdivision off Hogue Road. They almost can't built the houses fast enough. This is going to be a high growth area and I think that if we don't have urban intersections this is what you'll see. I may not live to see it, but my children and grandchildren will and will be at the same place in this room saying why didn't we do it right the first time? I think that we have a golden opportunity to do it right.

Commissioner Tuley: Phil, I think that is the same vision he shared. I'll commend you for that. I'll shake your hand when you and the other Council members provide that funding for us to acquire that right-of-way.

Phil Hoy: Well, you have already gotten us to commit a lot to the east side, as you know.

Commissioner Tuley: Okay.

Councilmember Hoy: I didn't really want to comment on the east side--

Commissioner Mourdock: But now that it has been brought up.

Councilmember Hoy: But now that you brought it up...since I live downtown I'm not real thrilled with what I see on the east side. If gasoline prices, which have gone up recently, ever catch up with Europe and the rest of the world where they are five, six, seven dollars a gallon and they have been for a long time we're going to have some real economic problems, I think. I know we will. We're already beginning to have those problems. But I look at the east side and have to be honest with you, Commissioner Tuley, I don't like what I see. I'm seeing...you know, we've gone from malls, then we went to strip malls and now we're going to isolated buildings with huge parking lots and all of that water...I'm also on the Soil & Water Conservation District as you are. We have four watersheds in this county and Mother Nature will only be insulted so long by our paving and then where is the water going to go? I'll tell you where it will go. I took a vacation over in Owensboro because I am a lifetime member of the Ursuline Associates. That's something to accomplish as the unwashed Protestant that I am and I'm proud of that, Patrick. On South Fredrica Street I go in to shop and here is a TJ Maxx Store with, brand new store, four inches of water in it. The whole strip, and there are cranes just lined up down South Fredrica building more and more. It will catch up with us. That's what I fear. I'm not against growth, but I think we do need to put up the money and I will promise you this as a Councilman that I will as long as I am sitting in that chair I'll do the best of my ability to help develop this properly on the west side and make that commitment to it.

Commissioner Tuley: Thank you.

President Jerrel: Thank you. If there are no further questions--

Commissioner Mourdock: Yeah, I would just like to thank everyone for the very civil discussion that took place here tonight. As you can imagine, when the room gets this full and a discussion goes this long a lot of times people get rather short tempered and this is the way government should work and I appreciate all of your input. Very helpful, thank you.

President Jerrel: It was a very good meeting. 
 

President Jerrel: I'm going to call the meeting back to order and let's proceed.

Commissioner Mourdock: Yeah, excuse me, Bettye Lou. You folks back there in the corner, John, could you kind of either move the group this way or this way because your sound comes back to our sound system. I don't mean to chase you out of the room.

President Jerrel: You could go in our...you could take them in there in the other room, John. 

Commissioner Mourdock: Right. Yeah, you're welcome to use our office.

President Jerrel: You can go in there and keep looking. 

Unidentified: We're leaving.

President Jerrel: You don't have to.

Commissioner Mourdock: We're not trying to end the discussion. 

President Jerrel: Okay, the next item on the agenda at this time is normally any other group or individual that wishes to speak to this body and at this time is there anyone that would like to make any comments?

Unidentified: Would that be new business?

President Jerrel: Well, it's not. It's just any individual. Feel free to speak now. Uh-huh, thank you.

Roger Madden: Roger Madden, 8127A O'Daniel out by USI. Some of the concerns that they brought up are valid about the traffic, etc. My concern today is the lack of visitation enforcement in the county. Public law 98-378, is part of the 1984 child support amendment, requires it says as a condition of state receiving federal funding they are required to investigate, study, examine, etc., etc., the extent of their success in securing child support and parental involvement and look at specific problems of visitation. Well, I have been back in Indiana for ten years. I started Fathers United eight years ago and I have seen no enforcement by the county of visitation rights which is a violation of that federal law, public law. Now, we pay a County Attorney who has a child support enforcement office and they use federal money which they get--

Joe Harrison, Jr.: That's the prosecutor.

Commissioner Tuley: How about the prosecutor, maybe?

Roger Madden: Yeah, same difference. 

President Jerrel: That's where--

Commissioner Mourdock: No, it's not the same. This is the county attorney. Joe is the county attorney.

Roger Madden: Okay, I'm sorry. 

Commissioner Mourdock: The county prosecutor is the county prosecutor.

President Jerrel: And he doesn't get any federal money.

Roger Madden: Okay, well Levco with child support office.

President Jerrel: Right, it would be the Prosecutor's Office.

Roger Madden: Okay. But anyway, number one they are failing to give equal protection whether it be the Fourteenth Amendment, Indiana's law on visitation rights. You go into court and you've got a county child support enforcement officer standing there half the time violating Indiana law not to mention violating the federal law. You have judges who don't give equal protection. They don't give modifications when you have been denied visitation for X number of months, years, etc., which Indiana law has laws for modification even to the point of changing the custody award. There is also the Clean Hands Doctrine which says when one party is in contempt of court they can't take the other party into court because they would end up being arrested for being the original person in contempt. So whether it's under justice or whether it's under the best interest of the child or there is even a section on greed that I could tell you Vanderburgh County, from what I can get, has about 10,000 child support enforcement cases. Now if they collected $1,200 per year, $100 a month per case, that would be $11 million dollars. The figures that I have been able to get from the child support enforcement research books they only collected about $4.9 million so they lost $9 million in just child support in this county. In 1985 when they did the Governor's Commission on Child Support Enforcement as part of the public law they made recommendations of more awards of joint custody, criminal penalty for denied visitation, legal assistance and representation for non custodial parents and a network of drop off and pick up points in cases with problems of denied visitations, problems between the parents. Well, that was what, 14 years ago? Well, now the 1997 child support enforcement report to congress they are suggesting the same thing again. So, you know, of course federal law said that states were required to secure parental involvement and visitation, too. They never did that. So what Health & Human Services Secretary Lewis Sullivan gave a speech in `91 and he brought up some issues about...I'm sorry, in 1990. The topic was male absence from the family in the United States. He said it was the greatest challenge of our generation. There are five times more poor kids in single parent homes, two times the dropout rate at school. The poverty rate for the nation was six percent and single parent household the poverty rate was 33 percent. Well, that was in `90. Back in `70 they did a study at American University that found that when you have father custody there was a 50 percent reduction in child poverty so right there that could eliminate a whole lot of the problem.

President Jerrel: Have you communicated with the prosecutor or the courts?

Roger Madden: I started calling them in 1989 when I came back from New Hampshire after spending four years in the Air Force protecting and defending the Constitution. I had the same--

Commissioner Mourdock: Let me ask Bettye Lou a question here because Bettye Lou is certainly our expert on funding within county government. As you mentioned, Roger, and Bettye Lou concurred there are certain federal funds that are issued to the county that are earmarked to the prosecutor for child support type issues.

President Jerrel: Uh-huh.

Commissioner Mourdock: Are there any other child support issues by which this Commission is directly involved?

President Jerrel: Our body?

Commissioner Mourdock: Yeah.

President Jerrel: No.

Commissioner Mourdock: Yeah, okay. So if I heard your point, Roger, and I think I did which is and I want to summarize it here as I wrote it, the prosecutor is getting federal funds and why should the prosecutor be getting them, why should the county get those funds if we're not following the federal rules?

Roger Madden: Correct.

Commissioner Mourdock: I mean, that's kind of saying it in a nutshell.

Roger Madden: Failure to comply, Title 42, USCS 304. 

President Jerrel: Are we...you made a leap there. I would not be aware that the prosecutor isn't following the guidelines. You're saying he is not?

Roger Madden: Well, I have called the office since I came home in `89 asking for assistance in visitation enforcement and they said we don't do that hire an attorney. I contacted Health & Human Services which referred me to an office, 402 W. Washington St., Room W364, Indianapolis Family & Social Services and they said contact Sharon Pierce in the Family Protection in Room W364 right there. That was on December 19th. I got that letter from them and on December 7th Bayh's office had sent me a letter saying we can't do anything, get legal counsel. Well--

Commissioner Tuley: Does the statute address who has oversight? 

Roger Madden: Well, Indiana...well, even better the statute says there are visitation rights. Visitation rights are supposed to be enforced.

Commissioner Tuley: Roger, let me rephrase it then. I guess what I am asking in the papers and the research that you've done you have identified that the prosecutor is the one in charge of the responsibility of seeing that, I'll say, your rights as a father are protected.

Roger Madden: Uh-huh.

Commissioner Tuley: If that prosecutor doesn't do that, does the law address what you have or who you can contact? I keep hearing you say everybody keeps referring you back to a local attorney. You're here before this body and I'm not sure why. 

Commissioner Mourdock: Right.

Roger Madden: Because I was referred here by the County Commissioners.

Commissioner Tuley and Commissioner Mourdock: We are the County Commissioners.

Roger Madden: County Council, I'm sorry. I was there last week. They referred me to you all.

Commissioner Mourdock: Okay.

Commissioner Tuley: Okay. 

Commissioner Mourdock: The County Council simply erred then.

Commissioner Tuley: Yeah, and that's the reason. I'm trying to not...I understand you have a problem and I'm not trying to make light or not understand, but I don't know what this body can do.

Commissioner Mourdock: And let me ask the county attorney, not the county prosecutor, but the county attorney, Joe Harrison. I'm hearing that Mr. Madden has been referred to get an attorney and I presume to bring some case against the enforcement branch? Against the Prosecutor's Office?

Joe Harrison, Jr.: Well, it sounds to me like you're concerned about your own personal--

Roger Madden: For visitation enforcement.

Joe Harrison, Jr.: --visitation rights. 

Roger Madden: Well, my daughter is 19 now so it doesn't matter.

Joe Harrison, Jr.: Okay.

Roger Madden: The problem is it's a constitutional rights violation. It's an Indiana law violation. 

Joe Harrison, Jr.: Right.

Roger Madden: A public law violation.

Joe Harrison, Jr.: But if anyone has a problem with their own divorce decree as it relates to visitation they should file a petition or information for contempt personally. They don't have to get a lawyer or obtain counsel and file a petition with the judge or with the court who entered the original divorce decree and give examples or reasons of problems they have with the visitation that they are currently not receiving with respect...as far as this body is concerned federal funds and that sort of thing, I don't see and I think your responses from the State of Indiana were probably accurate in that they were asked or requesting or suggesting that you go get counsel or just do it on your own regarding those matters. Now child support issues is a little different than child enforcement rights issues. Certainly there is IV-D money in child support issues that you brought up.

Roger Madden: They also handle all child support cases now. It has expanded.

Joe Harrison, Jr.: Right. The child support issues are handled by the Prosecutor's Office.

Roger Madden: Well, the prosecutor...the fax I received from the Governor's office said what is a prosecutor under 33-14-1-4 says he handles all...shall conduct all prosecutions for felonies, misdemeanors and infractions. Well, denied visitation is a misdemeanor. 

Joe Harrison, Jr.: Well, again, I'm not well versed in this area, but my only suggestion is that if there is a problem that someone has with visitation and it is in their divorce decree what their visitation rights are, it's set out in the divorce decree, they should go to the court or the judge who entered that decree.

Roger Madden: Okay, well say--

Joe Harrison, Jr.: And that court can do two things. It can either dismiss the petition that is filed or the verified information for contempt or it can modify or hold somebody in contempt of court for failure to comply with its order.

Roger Madden: Okay, well when you come into an interstate case as in mine, my daughter is in Alaska.

Joe Harrison, Jr.: Again, you're going into an area that I can't really help you there.

Roger Madden: But what I am saying is the child support enforcement officer enforces ERISA cases, but they won't do anything about visitation out of state.

Joe Harrison, Jr.: Again, you may want--

Roger Madden: So where is the protection?

Joe Harrison, Jr.: --to check with the State of Indiana and obviously either the Indiana Attorney General's Office--

Roger Madden: Been there.

Joe Harrison, Jr.: --or your local Prosecutor's Office.

Roger Madden: Modisett--

Commissioner Mourdock: At this point--

Joe Harrison, Jr.: That's the only thing I can suggest.

Commissioner Mourdock: Yeah, at this point given that your daughter is 19 and just looking at this--

Roger Madden: Well, I'm worried about the other--

Commissioner Mourdock: --as a point of law does Mr. Madden even have a standing in a court?

Joe Harrison, Jr.: I think he is not concerned about his own case.

Commissioner Mourdock: I know, I know. I know that.

Roger Madden: I have a case pending in New Hampshire right now because that is the original jurisdiction.

Commissioner Mourdock: Okay, there is your answer then.

Roger Madden: But like I said, I started the group Fathers United here and if there is all these guys that have come to me...and it's not just guys because you have the non custodial father, stepmother if they've remarried, grandparents on the non custodial side, step grandparents and all these people are wanting to see their kids they can't, they go to court and the judge ignores Indiana law. He ignores equal protection visitation rights, best interest of the child and you ask about the AG, Modisett put out a letter in `91, I believe it was, that said...talked about penalties and fines for denied visitation. It's Indiana Code 35-42-3-4B, a $500 fine up to $1,000 fine and 60 to 180 days in jail. Since he has become the...gone from a county attorney--

Commissioner Tuley: Prosecutor.

Roger Madden: County prosecutor, sorry, to the AG well now he only handles cases when somebody in the state has violated a law so he is not...it's like there is nowhere to go. I've tried four federal lawsuits. Federal Judge Gene Brooks said that constitutional rights and civil rights of visitation were frivolous and malicious and being a veteran I am very offended with that. It makes you understand why they wrote the Second Amendment into the Constitution. 

President Jerrel: It is...the point, I think, that I've gotten from your explanations there are rights that should be followed particularly if they have been granted in a court of law.

Roger Madden: Correct.

President Jerrel: And the prosecutor can only enforce those if a complaint is filed.

Roger Madden: And I filed one and they ignored it in `93 when my daughter was still a minor. 

President Jerrel: Well,--

Roger Madden: They said they didn't have enough evidence, but the only problem was they never asked me for evidence. I filled out the complaint form and that was it. I never heard back from them other than we can't help you. We don't have enough evidence to prosecute.

Commissioner Mourdock: And you realize this, Roger, and I know you do know because I know you have studied the workings of government, as a separate elected office this group, this Commission, has no authority whatsoever over the Prosecutor's Office. We are seen as equals.

Roger Madden: No, but what I was looking for was the county to appoint a visitation enforcement officer to assist those people because...well, let's see. In the...I believe it was in 1985 they had under Indiana Code 33-2-2.1-10, Child Custody Advisory Committee, they were looking into three issues: joint custody, visitation interference and visitation guidelines. Well, in `87 the Judicial Conference wrote support guidelines, but they didn't do any visitation guidelines and that was only three years after the public law so, you know, even the Indiana Supreme Court is not giving equal protection. That's how pathetic the situation is. 

Commissioner Mourdock: For this body to try to put a position in place that could effectively rule over an appointed decision of the court just doesn't work. I mean, I understand what you are asking.

Roger Madden: Well, who...I talked to Levco--

Commissioner Mourdock: It's not unlike, not unlike at all, another situation we have or had with Community Corrections in how things were done there. I mean, we could not tell the courts what to do or how to do it or even in the point of who would be at the SAFE House the question took this turn which was this body cannot tell the judges who would be there because how they handle those decisions is purely a judiciary call.

Roger Madden: Well, I talked to Levco in `92 at a paralegal meeting. I was taking paralegal classes at UE on veteran's benefits and he goes, oh, well we don't have any kind of positions like that, etc., etc. Lo and behold a few months later all of a sudden we've got this advocate position except apparently from on here the only thing that she took care of was issues for women. It's like, you know, children are women, going to be women. Why don't you take care of some of their problems before they, you know, eliminate some future problems. 

President Jerrel: If you call, I tell you what, you've read into the record a good many things. We'll get you a copy of our minutes and you can use them to send to the judges and the prosecutor, how is that?

Roger Madden: Okay, well--

President Jerrel: That's about all...we have no power.

Roger Madden: Well, I was told by the other Council that--

President Jerrel: The other Council controls money. 

Roger Madden: Yeah, well they said there was the money too.

President Jerrel: We do roads and streets, personnel, ordinances that relate to safety in this community. We don't tell the judges what to do. If we try we don't--

Roger Madden: Well, on the safety issue Lewis Sullivan in `90 said 60 percent of the children live apart from one biological parent. Fifty percent attempt suicide and 70 percent of juvenile delinquents in long-term correctional facilities grew up in a home without a father. That's due to the 1988 figure. They did a survey, four counties in Indiana, 400 cases, 77 percent denied visitation rate for which there were no contempts, no sanctions, no anything.

President Jerrel: They've got to go back to that court that issued it.

Commissioner Mourdock: That's right. If it were 100 percent it wouldn't affect... instead of 77 if it was 100 percent it wouldn't affect our inability to deal with this situation.

Roger Madden: Well, I am just trying to point out that this isn't a nutshell.

President Jerrel: Oh, no.

Commissioner Mourdock: Oh, I understand. It is not isolated to this county.

President Jerrel: It's a big problem.

Commissioner Mourdock: I understand that. 

President Jerrel: But if you would call we'll get you a set of the minutes if you want to use them.

Roger Madden: Okay, well--

President Jerrel: Thank you.

Roger Madden: --the other body gave me the impression that you were the ones to talk to and that you would be able to do something about it.

President Jerrel: We set...we do policy decisions, but we can't control the branch of government, the courts or the prosecutor.

Roger Madden: You don't even have any influence?

President Jerrel: Frankly--

Commissioner Tuley: Based on last Tuesday night's meeting, no.

President Jerrel: No.

Roger Madden: Well, like I said, as Sullivan said the 70 percent of juvenile delinquents, you know, if you eliminate the 77 percent denied visitation rate you might not need the new jail.

President Jerrel: Well, that is true.

Commissioner Mourdock: That's a good point. 

Roger Madden: You could save a whole lot money and bring a whole lot of...another 60 percent because right now Vanderburgh County is collecting, from what I can find, about 15 percent. If you have enforced visitation according to the 1989 US Census Survey you can have a 79 percent pay rate and if you have enforced joint custody there is a 90 percent pay rate. So people will pay for their kids when they get to see them. Otherwise there is a problem.

President Jerrel: Don't pay.

Commissioner Mourdock: Okay. Thank you, Roger.
 

President Jerrel: John Stoll.

John Stoll: I get the look of death. I've got one item, it's a supplemental agreement for Burkhardt Road phase four between Interchange Road South and Lynch Road. This would be for an increase of $14,800 for additional traffic studies for the intersection of Lynch and Burkhardt and for the intersections of Old Boonville Highway and Burkhardt. Given the fact that the EUTS traffic model currently is in need of recalibration it was felt that we could get better traffic data by looking at doing traffic projections specifically on the Burkhardt Road corridor and that was not a part of Bernardin Lochmueller's original agreement on this project. The traffic data was supposed to be supplied by EUTS. We've looked at that data and feel that it would be better to do some independent projections as opposed to using that traffic model data. So that is the need for this supplemental agreement and Rose is in the process of getting her traffic model updated and recalibrated, but that won't be available in the time frame needed to keep this project on schedule to try to get it designed and under construction by sometime next summer.

Commissioner Mourdock: So conceivably the traffic...the new traffic count you get would substantively affect the design?

John Stoll: Correct.

Commissioner Mourdock: For the intersection.

John Stoll: It's to evaluate the need for things such as traffic signals which is real popular after the hearing a while ago and for things like the need for separate turn lanes and the length of those turn lanes and things like that. So that is what really initiates the need for getting this data. 

Commissioner Mourdock: I'll move approval of the supplemental agreement in the amount of $14,800 as recommended.

Commissioner Tuley: Second.

President Jerrel: So ordered.

John Stoll: One thing in regard to the hearing earlier that I need to send a letter to the lady who was asking about the bus routes and the Eickhoff access. In looking through the plans Eickhoff will not be cut off. It will be connected, it just won't have access directly to the University Parkway at the current...I shouldn't say at the current location.

President Jerrel: Did you get her name? 

John Stoll: I figure once the minutes were--

Commissioner Mourdock: Judy Carver.

John Stoll: Pardon?

President Jerrel: Yeah.

Commissioner Mourdock: Judy Carver.

John Stoll: Judy Carver, okay. I'll send her a letter and a copy of the plan showing that it is not cut off. Basically, Upper Mount Vernon and Eickhoff will be connected and I forgot about that. 

Commissioner Mourdock: Any time we have those kind of meetings we really need to have one big map that everybody can see from one spot. I mean, I know that's--

Joe Harrison, Jr.: Blown up.

Commissioner Mourdock: Yeah, blown up. It's just going to save a lot of problems. 

President Jerrel: John, I want to thank you for--

Commissioner Mourdock: Ditto.

President Jerrel: You did a very good job.

John Stoll: Thanks.

President Jerrel: And I appreciate...I didn't say it to them, but there was a lot of thought that went into this and there were a lot of people here that gave good explanations, so I want to thank you.

John Stoll: Thanks.

Commissioner Tuley: Good job.

John Stoll: I would have expected...if we would have expected so many people I might have thought more about getting maps stuck up on the wall somewhere, but I sure wasn't expecting that size crowd so I figured it would be something--

Commissioner Tuley: I think she called a news conference today to say we were having this. I've seen it and heard it everywhere.

Commissioner Mourdock: Is that right?

President Jerrel: Yeah, right. No, that's true.

John Stoll: If the people want to call us, like I said, we'll send them whatever data we've got so they can take a look at it even though we didn't have it available...ready and available for them this evening.

Commissioner Tuley: You still did a good job though.

John Stoll: Thanks.

President Jerrel: Yeah, we appreciate it.
 

President Jerrel: Erik has turned in his report and next is--

Commissioner Mourdock: Do we have anything from Joe? If we don't we'll do them all at once. 

President Jerrel: Do you have anything?

Joe Harrison, Jr.: No, I've got some questions for John, but no.

President Jerrel: Okay.
 

President Jerrel: Superintendent of County Buildings.

Tony Greubel: I put a memo about the YMCA wanting to raise their membership rates.

President Jerrel: Yeah, be sure you look at that. We won't make any decision tonight. Tony needs to--

Tony Greubel: If you want to give me your input over the weekend.

President Jerrel: --get some guidance from us on that.

Tony Greubel: They are trying to raise their rates by like almost a fourth or so.

President Jerrel: Twenty-five percent.

Commissioner Tuley: When was the last time they raised them, do you know?

Tony Greubel: April of `98. 

Commissioner Tuley: I thought you were going to say `94 or `95. 
 

Commissioner Mourdock: I'll move approval of the county department reports as filed for the County Garage, Burdette, Soil & Water Conservation District and the Ozone Officer. 

Commissioner Tuley: Second.

President Jerrel: So ordered. 
 

President Jerrel: Are there any questions about the consent items? Hearing none, is there motion to accept them?

Commissioner Mourdock: So moved.

Commissioner Tuley: Second. 

Tony Greubel: You do not have a Soil & Water Conservation District report.

President Jerrel: No.

Tony Greubel: Probably because it was a short week Mike Wathen couldn't get that.

President Jerrel: Okay, and I'll say so ordered on the consent items.
 

President Jerrel: Is there any old business to come before this body?
 

President Jerrel: Okay, hearing none any new business?

Commissioner Mourdock: Just a request for Council Call that came in from Burdette. Perhaps we should have done this during their department report, but I understand Steve Craig wants to get permission to do a Council Call for the Discovery Lodge and the amount of the Council Call is $494,038.70.

President Jerrel: That is their money that is already in the CCD and you know it would roll over.

Commissioner Tuley: Reappropriating it.

President Jerrel: He just wants to reappropriate it. Yeah.

Commissioner Tuley: Second.

President Jerrel: So ordered. Okay, is there a motion to adjourn?

Commissioner Mourdock: So moved.

Commissioner Tuley: Second.

President Jerrel: So ordered.

The meeting was adjourned at 7:45 p.m.

Those in attendance:

Bettye Lou Jerrel

Richard E. Mourdock

Patrick Tuley

Joe Harrison, Jr.

Suzanne M. Crouch

Charlene Timmons

Tony Greubel

Jerry Bryan

John Stoll

Rose Zigenfus

Sherrianne Standley

Paul Vandendorpe

Cindy Brinker

Susan Wolf

Shirley James

Mary Ellen Tavenner

Rebecca Whitehouse

Andy Hubbard

Brian Litherland

Steve McCallister

Ralph Mueller

Judy Carver

John Eickhoff

Bill Meisler

Paul Doss

Cynthia Hoehn

Tim Mueller

David Griffith

Carl Griesbacher

Joyce Waters

Brent Barnes

Phil Hoy

Roger Madden

Others unidentified

Members of the media

Vanderburgh County
Board of Commissioners

Bettye Lou Jerrel, President

Richard E. Mourdock, Vice President

Patrick Tuley, Member
 

Recorded and transcribed by Charlene Timmons.