VANDERBURGH COUNTY
BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS
SPECIAL MEETING: OLD COURTHOUSE
NOVEMBER 18, 2002
The Vanderburgh County Board of Commissioners met in special session this 18th day of November, 2002 at 4:33 p.m. in Room 307 of the Civic Center Complex with President Catherine Fanello presiding.
President Fanello: Call to order Vanderburgh County Board of Commissioner Special Meeting on the Old Courthouse. With us we have members of the Old Courthouse Foundation and the Courthouse Advisory Board. So, I guess, we’ll begin...I don’t know, do we have a spokes person for the Foundation who wants to start the meeting?
Unidentified: (Inaudible. Not at mike.) Dennis. Dennis has been (Inaudible) president until this point (Inaudible).
Dennis Au: Yes, Commissioners, I’m Dennis Au, President Pro Tem of the Foundation. We appreciate this opportunity to come before you. We were concerned, and wanted direction as to how we are to operate, interface with the Commission, and with the Advisory Board. We wanted to have this opportunity to have some dialogue.
President Fanello: Okay. Commissioner Mourdock, do you have anything? I would just say for, and I went back and reviewed the ordinance for the Advisory Board, and then articles for the Foundation. As Councilman Winnecke, I’ve spoke with him before, spoken with him before, my thoughts are that the Foundation, which is a not-for-profit foundation serves as a conduit for us to receive grants. I would also like to see the Foundation possibly have fund raisers for the Old Courthouse, and try to, you know, get some public money for us to do things at the Old Courthouse. With the county’s budget constraints, I mean, I’ll be honest with you, my first thought is I want to see the building restored completely, but I don’t know how that’s going to work within our budget over the next couple of years. So, until we could, you know, embark on a project of that size and nature, I think it’s important for the Foundation to take a role of raising money and helping us to acquire grants to get some of the work done on the Old Courthouse. I mean, it’s necessary to have a 501C-3 like this in order to accomplish that, because there’s not a lot of grants available for governments, the same that there are for 501C-3's. So, that’s kind of my, how I see the Foundation operating. The Advisory Board I see, you know, coming together and also looking at the operation of the facility. Looking at, you know, how we occupy the space. Also looking at who can occupy the space, if there’s any government offices that can possibly move over there. Sort of interfacing with us on an operational standpoint. I think the Foundation could also do that as well, because I think both boards, all three of the boards could work together to come up with solutions and ideas for the Old Courthouse. So, I mean, I see constant communication and idea sharing back and forth. That’s kind of the way I envision it.
Commissioner Mourdock: On the Advisory Board I’ll just add that, you know, I really see that board functioning much as some of our other advisory boards do, Burdette Park being the classic example where we’ve got some people on that board who are very, very devoted to the park, and want to see better things happen out there, both in the short term and the long term. I would hope that the Advisory Board takes upon itself the mission to lay out how we can fully restore that building, and, my personal thinking is, and I think most people would agree with this, ultimately that building is going to end up being used again for government purposes, and I think however we can bring together the people, the abilities, and the experience to say this is the plan for the building, the better off we are. I would like to see, not that this is a, this is my wish list, okay? I would like to see an architect review that building with the specific plan of bringing it back into 100% government use. There are all kinds of old courthouses around the state of Indiana, and I’ve been in dozens of them, that were once in the shape that ours is in, or in worse shape, and it’s taken a lot of time, effort, money, and most importantly planning to bring those back into some absolutely, they are stellar examples both of architecture, but more importantly, of functional use for government. So, I think that ought to be a part of your goal. With the comment that Catherine made also, as far as raising money, I think part of the mission of both boards, perhaps especially the Foundation, is to try to keep the building in front of the public. Obviously, that’s what your predecessor organization did for many years. Faye Gibson, I know the last night she was here, I think she was depressed when she left, and at the same time she was kind of pleased, because she took on the mission in 1969 to keep a wrecking ball from hitting the building, and it was 30 years that some would argue the building was almost in suspended animation, but it wasn’t subject to a wrecking ball either. So, I think the group succeeded in that regard, and it’s now your chance to pick it up and move it to that restoration stage.
President Fanello: I mean, I agree with Richard. I would like to see, you know, ways that we can promote use of the Old Courthouse. This past year, you know, we had a government day over there where we brought a lot of high school children, or elementary school children in to take a look at the building, and we had, you know, booths set up so they can learn about government. I mean, I see a lot of activities taking place over there that are educational, fun activities, something, anything that can promote, you know, the value and the historic aspects of the Old Courthouse.
Dennis Au: I think what’s been said has given some good direction, particularly developing a plan for the building. What, in the first several meetings of the Foundation Board we were floundering around a little bit. You know, we need a particular goal, if we’re going to raise money, we have to have a particular goal why folks should give us money. I think developing a plan, which is going to cost some money, might be a good initial goal. It may be good for us to, for the Foundation Board, to work hand in glove, particularly in this early stage, with the Advisory Board. I don’t know if we can have joint meetings, or how we’re going to communicate, but I think we’re going to need to work closely with them.
President Fanello: I don’t really see any problem with having joint meetings. They can do that can’t they? I think that would probably be a good idea in the beginning, as you begin to set a plan down. I, you know, Richard has mentioned, you know, using it for 100% government, and I would like to see it used for government offices also, but I kind of believe that maybe, you know, we can use it for a mix of private and government offices. I think it would be well served in that benefit. If we can’t use it for all government offices.
Commissioner Mourdock: Just to clarify my, I’m not suggesting you start vacating leases, but I think ultimately, if you’re looking ten years down the road, that’s what’s going to happen, is it’s going to be government.
President Fanello: And that could be the long term plan. Because I think it’s going to be important to set out some three year, five year, ten year goals of how the building will, what you expect the building to look like in the next ten, 15 years.
Dennis Au: Very good. Is there any concept of, like directions you may want us to go in fund raising?
Commissioner Mourdock: As much as you can, as fast as you can.
President Fanello: Yeah.
Dennis Au: There are some federal government grants that are available that would be, that we could apply for, but then there are interest groups in the county, that if we had a specific project that, you know, perhaps we could entertain, as I look at my friend, Mr. Winternheimer, attorneys that, of course, many of the senior attorneys remember, fondly remember practicing in that building.
Commissioner Mourdock: Funny you should say that. Because I was trying to think of a way of how to work this into the conversation. I happen to be a history buff. It seems to me you need to build such events around some core activities, or maybe even significant dates. One of the things I was thinking of in this area is are there significant dates coming up that you could have your events, to begin to build the publicity as to what your new plan is, and how you’re moving forward. There is a significant date coming up. That date is July 4, 2003. Anyone in the room know what happened at the Old Courthouse in July 4, 1903? Ah, see I’m the only person probably in the room, one of the few, Catherine too–
President Fanello: You weren’t there then, were you?
Commissioner Mourdock: No, I wasn’t there, but I’m not a native Hoosier, nor is Catherine, but I know a number of you who are. 100 years ago, this coming 2003, July 4th, something happened down there at the Old Courthouse that is known in Indiana history as the, well, let me tell you what it was. Ugly part of Indiana history. There were a lot of lynchings that were taking place from the 1880's through 1903. It was a serious problem, in fact, the lynchings in this part of the country were so numerous that southern governors were, basically, running people out telling them don’t come down here and criticize us, look what’s happening in Indiana and the Midwest. Low and behold a couple of people were caught and put in the old jail, down across from the Old Courthouse, and a mob started to form. The governor at the time, a guy by the name of Durbin, said that he was not going to stand for it, and they were going to change things. He mobilized the Indiana Militia, precursor to the Indiana National Guard. Sure enough a group showed up, wanted to free these couple guys, free them so they could drag them out and hang them, and the Indiana Militia opened fire out there between the Old Courthouse and the old jail. When it was over, 11 people were dead. I’m old enough I remember Kent State when four people were killed. It was like the nation came to a stop. I’ve often wondered what it must have been like in Evansville back in 1903, because everybody in town had to know one, at least one of those 11 people. As ugly a part of Indiana history as that is, that also put an end to the lynchings. They quit. There was only one lynching from that day until now. Which was a dramatic change in the history of the state. So, I make that point of being a little historical date that it may be something you can build around. If nothing else, create a monument, dedicate it down there on that day, and start to build interest in the building through it’s history. So, I happened to have discussion the other day with James Madison, who is professor emeritus of history at IU, and he was saying how one of his goals was to create more historical markers around the state, both of good things and of bad things. After that meeting, I got to thinking of this, and it seemed like it might be an appropriate time to put something forward. So, there’s a challenge for you two groups. And there’s your history lesson for the day.
President Fanello: Thank you.
Dennis Au: Excellent idea. I think we could perhaps even work in tandem with the Vanderburgh County Historical Society.
Commissioner Mourdock: Absolutely.
Dennis Au: They’re the one’s who generally make application to the state for historical markers. Perhaps we could work with them on a program.
Commissioner Mourdock: Once you get such a marker in place, it might build the way for some future funding down the road. Look, we’ve already got an historical site. It’s already been recognized for this reason, and keep building on that.
Dennis Au: From my point of view, in conclusion, if we could just make sure we have some direction to perhaps have a couple of initial meetings between the Advisory Board and the Foundation, if your staff could help with making that happen.
President Fanello: Tammy would be happy to help you out.
Dennis Au: I think that would be a good start for us, and we could begin to formulate a direction on what projects need to go forward, and then a direction on how we’re going to make, how we’re going to raise money.
Commissioner Mourdock: And I’ll make another suggestion in that regard, and, obviously, I won’t be here after January 1st, but the first part of a plan is setting some dates in place, so that people know when to report. I think if you did that quarterly to the full board of Commissioners, if you could come back, maybe, at that first meeting, and say here are the list of goals that we’ve set for us, and then report periodically every quarter as to the progress you’re making on those goals. I think that would serve the board well, and probably help keep you all well focused.
Dennis Au: Absolutely. That’s the other part of the triumvirate here. We need to know exactly what the pleasure of the County Commissioners are in these matters.
President Fanello: Is there anyone else in the audience who has anything that they would like to add?
Commissioner Mourdock: I’m curious, is there much divergent thinking within the group that’s here? In other words, do some of you see the building going one direction, and others see going another? That’s not bad. I’m just curious what the full scope of the thinking might be. Jack, you’re never without a word or two.
Jack McNeely: You caught me at a rare moment.
Commissioner Mourdock: Alright, I see Mr. Bohleber is starting to rise from his seat there.
Steve Bohleber: I’m just trying to leave.
Commissioner Mourdock: Oh.
Steve Bohleber: But, since you mentioned my name. I’m Steve Bohleber, and I’m a member of the Foundation Board. I’m glad that we had an opportunity to meet, because one of our questions has been how the three entities work together. I think joint meetings are certainly great. I think Commissioner Mosby is on the Foundation Board, as well. I would presume he would be our liaison to this body, in the future. I see a lot of...do you envision that we would solicit and have members for the Foundation from the community? That seems to be a logical thing to do. Is that something we have the authority to just do, if we choose?
President Fanello: I think those are already set in the by laws, the members and who they are. There is quite a few citizen appointments–
Steve Bohleber: No, I’m talking about memberships.
President Fanello: Oh, memberships.
Steve Bohleber: All not-for-profit organizations can solicit memberships–
President Fanello: Yeah, that’s right.
Steve Bohleber: –at various levels, as contributors.
President Fanello: Is that–
Steve Bohleber: You know, I would think that would be a possible way of energizing a group of citizens in the community–
President Fanello: I agree.
Steve Bohleber: –to work toward the ends here. Involve the schools as well, because of the historical significance that you mentioned. There a lot of other historic things that happened on the steps of that courthouse almost every, every year.
Commissioner Mourdock: Uh-huh.
Steve Bohleber: To try to put together some, some history. I do appreciate the clarification we’ve received, because the by laws and all the other documents were suggested, but certainly we wanted to hear what the Commissioners thinking was on our role, again, how we interact with the Advisory Committeeman. If we could meet with the Advisory group in some detail–
President Fanello: And I think–
Steve Bohleber: –that would not be, in your opinion, any violation of any state laws? Is that right, Kevin?
Kevin Winternheimer: No.
Steve Bohleber: Since we’re not elected officials.
Kevin Winternheimer: No, go ahead. That’s fine.
Steve Bohleber: Thank you very much.
President Fanello: Thank you, Steve.
Commissioner Mourdock: Going back to something Dennis said. I think, you know, when it comes to the fund raising, until you really have some specific goals in place, you’re not going to be very successful.
Steve Bohleber: You can’t get people to throw money into a pot for some dream that is not yet formalized.
Commissioner Mourdock: Right. Yeah. Lloyd do you have any comments as far as what the long term funding potential might be from the Council? Or how you would see that, or not see that?
Lloyd Winnecke: Lloyd Winnecke, Foundation member from the County Council. Long term, obviously, we would like to see as much money raised through this venue, or this venue, I guess, as possible. We’ve, Council has appropriated a million dollars for the replacement of the roof, and that process is underway. The windows, I think, would be the next logical replacement item. I think, to Commissioner Fanello’s point, I mean, I think a lot of people would like to see a complete restoration, if you will, but I don’t think there’s a plan yet, and, frankly, I think, you asked earlier if there was a, what the opinion of the Foundation Advisory Board was about the use. We haven’t really gotten into that much discussion. I think, we’ve been sort of trying to muddle our way along, and figure out what we’re all about. I think this clarification really helps that process, and we’ll be able to move along in a little more expeditious fashion. I think, long term, we would like to see, in my mind, I would like to see us institute, or re-institute, I guess, in this case, an annual sort of signature fund raiser, that’s unique to the Old Courthouse. We can’t set that today, or next week, again, we need to figure out what the goal is, and move on from there.
Commissioner Mourdock: Have any of you in the group, or, Lloyd, especially, have any of you been to many of the other county courthouses around the state that have been totally refurbished and remodeled, and had any discussion with anyone as far as how they did the funding on that?
Lloyd Winnecke: I have not.
President Fanello: Is it, oh, I’m sorry.
Commissioner Mourdock: I’m sorry. Oh.
Dennis Au: Dennis Au, back at the microphone. I’ve been to Tippecanoe County–
Commissioner Mourdock: Uh-huh.
Dennis Au: –they have a courthouse approximately contemporary with ours, not as nice, mind you, but they have quite an ambitious plan to indeed add even more space internally, and to, as much as possible, respect the historical integrity of the building. It turned out very well. It’s the pride of the community once again, and a real asset to Lafayette.
Commissioner Mourdock: Tippecanoe’s is right, right smack in the middle of downtown Lafayette too. It’s right in the square there.
Dennis Au: Absolutely.
Commissioner Mourdock: I know they had a real hot bed of activity last year, because a judge mandated more security for the courtrooms, and all the restoration they had just done was, basically, some of the historical restoration was going to be disturbed, otherwise ruined by the new security measures that were being put in place. The moral of that story is, if we’re going to start to go toward courtrooms or something, we need to be thinking all the way around as to what the long term implications might be. For that reason, that would be another good one to revisit just to hear what they had gone through. Allen County is a fantastic courthouse. It’s, again, very much the same vintage, maybe even a little bit larger than ours. It might be one of the only ones that’s larger in the state. Monroe County in Bloomington is a good one. I really encourage you to get up and look at some of those, and find out how they did it. If it was strictly done through council funding, or how they might have brought other historical groups into it, because they’ve done a masterful job on some of those.
President Fanello: I think the one in Allen County, is that the one where the Smithsonian helped them restore? There’s one courthouse in the state where the Smithsonian Institute helped.
Commissioner Mourdock: It may be. Tammy, you’re nodding your head. Is that–
President Fanello: Is that the one?
Tammy McKinney: I believe so.
President Fanello: I don’t know how they did that, but I wish we could find out how to go down that same route.
Commissioner Mourdock: Maybe a good role of that one as an example, it’s been done over a number of years. They were literally just finishing it up last spring and summer. You walk through two of the wings, and it was beautiful and restored, and that last one still had scaffolding with people lying on their backs doing the Michelangelo imitation. It was fantastic to see.
Dennis Au: Yes, Allen County is another one. I’ve just seen it on the outside. It may be a slight misrepresentation saying the Smithsonian did it. I believe they did the restoration through Save Our Landmarks, which is a government program that gives large grants. I mean, a lot of these government grants are, maybe $50,000, which is not pocket change to me or most everyone sitting here. However, when you’re considering a project such as the Old Courthouse, that doesn’t go that far. I believe Save Our Landmarks gives money in the millions of dollars.
President Fanello: Maybe we could get them to save our landmark.
Dennis Au: Well, indeed. What I think will be necessary, we do have a representative of the Historic Landmarks Foundation of Indiana, and they do have their finger on the pulse of such projects, and can help. In fact, Mr. Stewart Sebree, the local representative is in the audience today, and I’m hoping we can work with Mr. Sebree to tap into many of these things.
Commissioner Mourdock: One other comment that I would make, and I’ll kind of underline this, picture it in italics, and maybe bold. In every courthouse that I visited over the last year that had been dramatically remodeled, without exception, everyone of them led to some revitalization in the surrounding block. Tippecanoe County, it was one of those there in Lafayette where a lot of the downtown area was starting to fade, but all of a sudden now there is a gleaming courthouse, and people feel better about downtown, and they’ve put some new shops in, and that kind of revitalization. With that in mind, it seems to me the city has a great deal to benefit. So, let’s think broad brush here, how would the city participate, perhaps, in helping to fund the county with the Old Courthouse, because I think it could lead to a vitalization, a revitalization of that whole area. The one thing that’s different, there aren’t many, there a few Indiana county seats that are like ours. We’re in the minority. Most old courthouses are right in the downtown square. Ours is kind of off a few blocks. That’s both a problem, I think it led, in some way, why the building did eventually not fit the scope of what we needed, and caused it to be abandoned. But, now it’s somewhat of an opportunity, if that can be a target to help revitalize that part of downtown. So, I think it could be a real jewel in that sense that could lead to other things. So, try to get the city involved.
Dennis Au: Thank you very much.
President Fanello: Thank you, Dennis. Is there anyone else here–
Don Cox: I’m Don Cox. As you know I was on the other committee, the original committee, and I took that appointment on that committee with a little hesitation, because I’ve never been known as a preservationist around town. In fact, some of these people know very well. I have always said, if there was one building in town that needed to be saved, it was the courthouse. It’s too bad we didn’t save the railroad station, both of them. I think the committee that we had, I agreed to serve on the Advisory committee. I don’t even know who’s on the committee, for instance. Or what our job is supposed to be. The committee you had originally was a very good committee, and they worked very hard at it, some more than others, but I would like to see some more of those people involved that was involved with the original committee.
President Fanello: Okay.
Don Cox: I think they’ve got some ideas, and what they did, at first, you all were following through on that. If we could take that same idea and keep going with it in doing other things, to repair the building, get it in good shape, and good use. As far as use is concerned, I’ve said that I think that the courthouse’s main use, if it’s going to be used, will be for government offices. We’ve tried for many, many years to get private offices in there, and it just hasn’t worked, and boutiques and this sort of thing. I think if we could get an idea of where we want to go with it, what the use we want to put to it, and this committee that we had before, I know that one, and I’m sure there are others who could serve on it too, would have an idea of what you really want, and where you want to go with this thing. I’m willing to serve on it. In fact, I feel honored to serve on it. Even though I don’t live in Vanderburgh County, by the way. So, I wouldn’t have to pay for it, would I?
Commissioner Mourdock: We’re working on that.
Don Cox: You’ll work that in.
Steve Bohleber: Only with your billfold, Don.
Don Cox: I bet you could do it. I really think that we need to have a little more direction. Or I do, at least, of what you want out of us, and what do you want us...do you want us to come up with the programs and furnish it to the Foundation, and say we need a million dollars, go get it, type of thing? I think the Foundation has got their work cut out. That’s going to be a terrific job. I’ve served on several Foundations, and happen to be chairman of one right now, but you’re going to have to go after some big money, and some of these people.... I would, my advice to you is to try to get some of the people that’s involved with the two University Foundations involved, and some of these other foundations around that have been successful. When they go out, they go out after $30, $40 million, for the universities. I don’t mean that we need to do that, but I think if you had some people that would, that really know how to get out and bulldog it, and raise the money, you’re going to need that.
Commissioner Mourdock: Well, that’s a great suggestion. How about this, if, I’ll be presumptive here a moment, for a moment, but I think this would pass the whole Commission. If you could get us a list of those names, or if you and several other members of the group want to give us the names that you think would be particularly helpful, the County Commission can certainly communicate with those people, and ask them to serve in membership in the way Steve Bohleber was talking about with the Foundation.
Don Cox: Yeah.
President Fanello: We also still have three appointments...we have not completely filled the Advisory Board yet.
Commissioner Mourdock: Okay.
President Fanello: We still have three appointments on the Advisory Board.
Don Cox: Good.
Commissioner Mourdock: But that is a great idea.
Don Cox: Who else is on there?
President Fanello: Melinda Jarboe, and then it will be Tammy McKinney, and a Commissioner appointment, and then we have three citizen appointments, I believe, is how it was....and we have not filled all three citizen appointments from the Commission.
Don Cox: Think about some of those people who were on the first one.
President Fanello: Could you possibly get Tammy a list of some of those names?
Don Cox: Pardon?
President Fanello: Could you possibly get Tammy a list of some of those names.
Don Cox: I think so.
Tammy McKinney: That was the Task Force.
Don Cox: Yeah.
Tammy McKinney: I was on it.
Don Cox: Yeah, she was on it.
President Fanello: Okay.
Don Cox: Don’t you think that was a good group? Some of them put in an awful lot of time on it. You need something like, somebody like an architect.
Commissioner Mourdock: Okay.
Don Cox: And maybe an appraiser, and this sort of thing. Which you had on the other one. But, that’s all, that’s about all I’ve got to say.
President Fanello: Thank you, Don.
Don Cox: Just tell us what to do.
President Fanello: Is there anyone else who would like to offer any comments or suggestions? Don’t see any. Well, we’re always here for questions, and we look forward to hearing your ideas and suggestions, and if you want to have another joint meeting with the Commission at any time, just let us know, and we can all get together. We’ll go ahead and try to fill the rest of those Advisory Board appointments, and then you all can have some joint meetings, and come back to us and let us know what you think.
Commissioner Mourdock: Make a plan. You’re nothing unless you got a plan. So, give us a plan.
President Fanello: We do thank you for your time and effort.
Steve Bohleber: Thank you.
President Fanello: Thanks.
Commissioner Mourdock: I guess, formally I’ll move adjournment.
President Fanello: I’ll second that.
The meeting was adjourned at 5:02 p.m.
Those in Attendance:
Catherine Fanello Richard E. Mourdock Kevin Winternheimer
Tammy McKinney Bill Fluty Madelyn Grayson
Dennis Au Steve Bohleber Lloyd Winnecke
Don Cox Others Unidentified Members of Media
VANDERBURGH COUNTY
BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS
Catherine Fanello, President
Richard E. Mourdock, Member
Recorded and transcribed by Madelyn Grayson.